Evolution of the two bolt sport anchor?

The two-bolt anchor has come a long way, yet we still live in a world where you could dump your rope into mussies on one line and try to rig some fifi hooks on cold shuts two feet apart on the next. We've seen the anchor come a long way in 40ish years, but where do we see it going next? How will it evolve to accommodate the way we play, mitigate risk of injury and reduce friction in cleaning routes? What should be the standard?

A few thoughts: Mussies do a lot and are ample strong. I would imagine always the solution will include some steel device that you can dump your rope in and lower. Sometimes ropes can run a little funky through the mussies because of twists in chains and it can be tedious to clip twice. Do we see the development of a cost-effective device that attaches in the middle of the bolts and you only have to clip once on popular routes? A single chain connecting both with the mussies close together? Anything outside that discussion that I'm missing as far as bolt orientation, ways to make sport anchors more low-profile, safe, easy to understand or efficient? 

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but I don't think we've made it as efficient as could be. Curious to hear your thoughts.

This is a great question. You'll get a much more specific answer if you post in the Fixed Anchor and Hardware section. 

José Flovin wrote:

The two-bolt anchor has come a long way, yet we still live in a world where you could dump your rope into mussies on one line and try to rig some fifi hooks on cold shuts two feet apart on the next. We've seen the anchor come a long way in 40ish years, but where do we see it going next? How will it evolve to accommodate the way we play, mitigate risk of injury and reduce friction in cleaning routes? What should be the standard?

A few thoughts: Mussies do a lot and are ample strong. I would imagine always the solution will include some steel device that you can dump your rope in and lower. Sometimes ropes can run a little funky through the mussies because of twists in chains and it can be tedious to clip twice. Do we see the development of a cost-effective device that attaches in the middle of the bolts and you only have to clip once on popular routes? A single chain connecting both with the mussies close together? Anything outside that discussion that I'm missing as far as bolt orientation, ways to make sport anchors more low-profile, safe, easy to understand or efficient? 

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but I don't think we've made it as efficient as could be. Curious to hear your thoughts.

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/111346457/new-titanium-rams-horns-anchors-are-installed-on-all-routes-they-are-quick-easy-

We've seen the anchor come a long way in 40ish years, but where do we see it going next?

You realize that 2-bolt anchors have been around since the 50's, yes? Hardly only "40-ish years."

José Flovin wrote:

Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but I don't think we've made it as efficient as could be. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Dropping the rope into two mussies is pretty efficient.  I mean, I think Im pretty lazy and even I can manage that.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

Dropping the rope into two mussies is pretty efficient.  I mean, I think Im pretty lazy and even I can manage that.

Way too hard

Two bolt offset anchor with chain connecting both, and ram horns or mussy on one bolt
Replace rap ring in the first photo - https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/vertical-anchors-101 

I think no matter what innovation happens in the future, you'll always be making some sort of compromise between cost, efficiency, or ease of use. Also, terrain and route styles will differ and make some options more appealing.

Mussies are long lasting, but more expensive and tricky to clip if in an overhang. Probably the best option for high traffic single pitch vert/slab routes in popular crags.
A good compromise is one mussy set slightly higher than a steel permadraw. Draw is easier to clip, acts as a backup, and the mussy takes all the wear. Also nice for if the route has an extension.
In caves with established permadraws, and no cleaning required, i like two bolts connected by chain, with one permadraw to lower from attached wherever. Steel biner.
For low traffic routes in mainstream areas, 2 chains and biners. Cheaper and plenty safe, and easy to update hardware later if the route gets more popular.
For low traffic routes far away, or multipitch anchors, you get whatever the route developer wanted to use that was light and cheap.

But, I like to imagine that the new standard in the future will be a titanium hoop fixed on the wall that you jump through and lower out of.

I got blasted for saying we didn't need two point anchors on perma drawed routes. If it is perma drawed I never clip the second anchor point, I don't see the point in putting more wear on another anchor point for only a semantic reason. There are videos of Ondra climbing perma routes that also only have a single lower off. This also discourages people from TRing off the anchor hardware if there is only one anchor point. 

Marc801 C wrote:

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/111346457/new-titanium-rams-horns-anchors-are-installed-on-all-routes-they-are-quick-easy-

You realize that 2-bolt anchors have been around since the 50's, yes? Hardly only "40-ish years."

Sure. This is specifically in reference to single pitch sport climbing, which sport climbing largely began in the 80s. The advent of which made single pitch sport climbing changed the way we approached single pitch climbing of all kinds and therefore anchors.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

Dropping the rope into two mussies is pretty efficient.  I mean, I think Im pretty lazy and even I can manage that.

I was anticipating this response. “Can be tedious” suggesting not always, but sometimes based on the way routes climb to the anchor and anchor position. I’m just noticing the inevitability of progression and there maybe being a solution that checks more than the box of simply convenience, but also low-profile appearance, less material, etc. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I got blasted for saying we didn't need two point anchors on perma drawed routes. If it is perma drawed I never clip the second anchor point, I don't see the point in putting more wear on another anchor point for only a semantic reason. There are videos of Ondra climbing perma routes that also only have a single lower off. This also discourages people from TRing off the anchor hardware if there is only one anchor point. 

You have way more faith in the Quality Control of the swages on PD’s than I do.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

You have way more faith in the Quality Control of the swages on PD’s than I do.  

I don't think I do, I for one have never even heard of one anchor bolt/hardware failing while the other did not fail. I have never heard of a perma and an anchor bolt failing. If this were a concern, I think you would see an open boycott of some kinda hardware. Secondly people lower off one bolt all the time when projecting. I regularly see people not take it to the anchor and lower off where they fell. Most importantly if the anchor does fail you are backed up by the peram draws, which means you take at most a 15 foot fall. Not ideal but you are not going to die from that. You would need so much to fail in order to be critically injured. This also disregards the fact that people are taking 20 foot falls onto permas constantly, I don't really understand the logic of not trusting a perma but trusting a perma while leading. 

If you clip both anchors on a perma route, how much does your safety margin increase? Like 1%? Is that worth doubling the amount of wear?

amarius wrote:

Two bolt offset anchor with chain connecting both, and ram horns or mussy on one bolt
Replace rap ring in the first photo - https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/vertical-anchors-101 

Exactly this (with a single ram horn). This has become the standard in places like Frankenjura. 

Downclimb everything.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I got blasted for saying we didn't need two point anchors on perma drawed routes. 

By who? I feel like anybody climbing in the harder grades couldn't care less (familiarity with lowering off a single bolt while projecting will get you comfortable real quick)

Personally, on some routes I've purposefully clipped the second chain to the first anchor bolt to get it out of the way and so I only had to clip once...

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I don't think I do, I for one have never even heard of one anchor bolt/hardware failing while the other did not fail. I have never heard of a perma and an anchor bolt failing. If this were a concern, I think you would see an open boycott of some kinda hardware. Secondly people lower off one bolt all the time when projecting. I regularly see people not take it to the anchor and lower off where they fell. Most importantly if the anchor does fail you are backed up by the peram draws, which means you take at most a 15 foot fall. Not ideal but you are not going to die from that. You would need so much to fail in order to be critically injured. This also disregards the fact that people are taking 20 foot falls onto permas constantly, I don't really understand the logic of not trusting a perma but trusting a perma while leading. 

If you clip both anchors on a perma route, how much does your safety margin increase? Like 1%? Is that worth doubling the amount of wear?

I’ve lowered off plenty of single draws or permanent draws along with all manor of manky anchors over the years but I don’t consider it best practice and would not advocate lowering off a single perma draw at an anchor as a common practice.  Perma draws have broken over the years.  All I’m saying is don’t blindly trust a single point ( even though I do it all the time) it’s just not good practice.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I’ve lowered off plenty of single draws or permanent draws along with all manor of manky anchors over the years but I don’t consider it best practice and would not advocate lowering off a single perma draw at an anchor as a common practice.  Perma draws have broken over the years.  All I’m saying is don’t blindly trust a single point ( even though I do it all the time) it’s just not good practice.  

The point is that you aren't trusting a single point. The last draw is your other piece. And then the one before that, etc.

Anonymous Coward wrote:

The point is that you aren't trusting a single point. The last draw is your other piece. And then the one before that, etc.

Kevin is correct.
Anonymous…. What if your the 3rd or 4th person and by the time you are climbing all the draws have been removed or unclipped?

Just don’t give me a one bolt anchor as some sort of standard please, people had to die BITD before we stopped doing this. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I got blasted for saying we didn't need two point anchors on perma drawed routes. If it is perma drawed I never clip the second anchor point, I don't see the point in putting more wear on another anchor point for only a semantic reason. There are videos of Ondra climbing perma routes that also only have a single lower off. This also discourages people from TRing off the anchor hardware if there is only one anchor point. 

A major issue with this system is keeping a CLOSE eye on the wear on the top (anchor) carabiner - it's more likely to wear and get a sharp edge (due to the sharp angle between the overhung route and lowering straight down). But the bigger issue is how do you prevent people from top-roping/following the route, then ending up on a single perma at the anchor?

Guy Keesee wrote:

Kevin is correct.
Anonymous…. What if your the 3rd or 4th person and by the time you are climbing all the draws have been removed or unclipped?

Just don’t give me a one bolt anchor as some sort of standard please, people had to die BITD before we stopped doing this. 

But this is not what I am saying at all, the assumption is that the route is equipped with permadraws and you are leading it... If the whole route is perma draws, and the anchor is a two bolts with chain and one lower off, I don't see what the person setting up the TR wouldn't put their own anchor hardware in this situation or just tell the follower to go to the last bolt. The leader could also swap out one perma with their side of the rope. Most routes that are perma drawed are pretty bad candidates for top ropes. If someone is so upset by it they can also just leave a biner on the anchor and boom, you have a two point anchor.

Greg Barnes wrote:

A major issue with this system is keeping a CLOSE eye on the wear on the top (anchor) carabiner - it's more likely to wear and get a sharp edge (due to the sharp angle between the overhung route and lowering straight down). But the bigger issue is how do you prevent people from top-roping/following the route, then ending up on a single perma at the anchor?

I bring anchor hardware with me quite regularly so I just replace it. But even if I didn't, everything I have bolted this way, you would have to make it bolt to bolt all the way up because it is so steep that if you fall you would have to boink all the way up to the last draw. Not to mention you would soft deck if you fell in the first few bolts. I am not doing this on steep 5.10s think horizontal 5.12+. The combination of someone climbing 100 feet at over 20 degrees or more making it to the anchor on TR for a 5.12+  and their partner not leaving a proper anchor at the top is super unlikely. Not to mention this climber can just clip belayer side of the rope to make the system more redundant. I did this to maybe 8 climbs last year, which probably saved me over $100. Here is an example of a climb I did this too: climb . I can't even remember if there was a way to lower off before we rebolted it, if someone is dumb enough to TR it they are going to break their leg before they even make it to the anchor. I installed maybe 60 perma draws last year (other people paid for some of them) but if someone thinks I am being cheap, Ill send them a link to buy the hardware. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I don't think I do, I for one have never even heard of one anchor bolt/hardware failing while the other did not fail...

There was a glue in anchor bolt, i think near st george UT, that pulled out a few years ago.