Tent questions for summer alpine rock

Hi there, not quite sure if this belongs here or in the mountaineering forum so bear with me.

I'm laying in bed recovering from surgery, and day dreaming about summer alpine trips to the tetons, bugs, cascades etc. Also lone peak cirque here in SLC.

I'm nerding out on tents/shelters for these trips. I'm a neophyte to alpine rock climbing and all I have for a tent is a pretty bulky 3 season backpacking tent that I'd like to upgrade. After doing a lot of research, I came across a really neat tent that I'm thinking could be just what I'm looking for, but I have two main reservations.

First, it requires a minimum of 4 stakes in the ground or else its unusable. I don't see an issue with this for really any surface except for a slab of rock. I'm hoping to get some advice from somebody who anecdotally feels like they have enough experience to say how much of an issue this really is, specifically in alpine rock climbing destinations. Is it fairly common to just not be able to get a stake in the ground *at all*, even with good site selection? Or is this really not much of a concern? ie most tent spots are dirt or gravel or snow or sand or whatever. 

Second, the tent is a double wall. The outer fly of the tent is pretty massive, it measures 100in x 83in. The 100 inch length doesn't really scare me too much, as it seems like even really small bivy tents like the firstlight aren't too much shorter then this. What throws me off is the width, as it seems like 83 inches is pretty damn wide as far as popular 4 season alpine tents. The only reason this concerns me is if I won't actually be able to fit it anywhere. Can anybody comment on roughly how tight things are, commonly? 

I really want to climb the Grand this summer, and if I could a trip into the cirque of the towers would be on the list as well. I mention these things just to give some more context for what I hope to use the tent for. Thanks for any advice! I appreciate it.

Jack

You'll find that stakes aren't usable at lot's of alpine camps.  Not an issue though.  Just pre-rig your tent with cord off the points that stake out then just hitch the cord too large stones.  This will become pretty standard.  You'll probably start forgetting to even pack stakes.

Your concern about the size of the footprint is right on.  Many camps/bivys are going to be very tight in terms of usable ground.  Huge vestibules are nice for ski touring/glacier camping but in rocky alpine terrain, it can be a pain to buff out a spot that will work.

Lot's of threads on here about the virtues of single vs double wall but basically if you are going to have rain a single wall will be rough due to condensation - you'll end up wettish.  For summer alpine climbing in the 48, i'd honestly go with a superlight, three-season double wall from someone like Big Agnes that also has a small footprint.  In subfreezing temps for ski touring or Andes I use a Firstlight and really like it.

Cheers.

What tent are you looking at?  You might get some advice from people who have experience with it 

For the Cascades, the optimal for me is a lightweight single wall 4 season tent. Rain isn’t much of a concern to me because the outings are usually pretty short and isolated to good weather windows. Weight is really the primary concern because it will be living on my or my partner’s back for essentially the whole time. Reasonable choices in my book would be things in the realm of the BD Firstlight, MSR Advanced Pro 2, TNF Futurelight Assault 2, Samaya Assault 2, Samaya Assult 2 Ultra.

I’ve used the TNF Futurelight Assult 2 pretty extensively and have only good things to say about it. I’ve recently started using the Samaya Assult 2 Ultra, which is simply outstanding. 

You mentioned ground stakes, they go unused for me. (Btw, in the Bugs, anywhere you can put a stake in, you aren’t allowed to camp). Most my overnights are on rock or snow, so guylines are your friends. When on rock, I tighten them around big rocks. When on snow, I either hold them down with pickets/tools or use SMC snow stakes.

For the Bugs specifically, I’ve only been there once for about 10 days. For that specific location, I’d prefer something a little more roomy; if I stick with the same tent I’m certainly bringing the vestibule. Waterproofing is more of a consideration there too as you may very well get rained on if you stay for more than a few days. The hike in isn’t very long, so carrying a bit extra weight isn’t horrible. 

climber pat wrote:

What tent are you looking at?  You might get some advice from people who have experience with it 

It's the Durston Gear X-Mid 2p Solid. It seems pretty perfect for it's weight/packed size to comfyness ratio, but my concern is that even using rocks to stake the 4 corners, it won't be a tight/stormworthy pitch. Those 4 corner stakes are really crucial cause they need to resist an inward pull, as well as an upward pull.

Chris C wrote:

I’ve recently started using the Samaya Assult 2 Ultra, which is simply outstanding. 

Chris, one or two people in the Samaya?  I saw their diagram showing sleepers head to toe.  How tight is it?

Chris C wrote:

For the Cascades, the optimal for me is a lightweight single wall 4 season tent. Rain isn’t much of a concern to me because the outings are usually pretty short and isolated to good weather windows. Weight is really the primary concern because it will be living on my or my partner’s back for essentially the whole time. Reasonable choices in my book would be things in the realm of the BD Firstlight, MSR Advanced Pro 2, TNF Futurelight Assault 2, Samaya Assault 2, Samaya Assult 2 Ultra.

I’ve used the TNF Futurelight Assult 2 pretty extensively and have only good things to say about it. I’ve recently started using the Samaya Assult 2 Ultra, which is simply outstanding. 

You mentioned ground stakes, they go unused for me. (Btw, in the Bugs, anywhere you can put a stake in, you aren’t allowed to camp). Most my overnights are on rock or snow, so guylines are your friends. When on rock, I tighten them around big rocks. When on snow, I either hold them down with pickets/tools or use SMC snow stakes.

For the Bugs specifically, I’ve only been there once for about 10 days. For that specific location, I’d prefer something a little more roomy; if I stick with the same tent I’m certainly bringing the vestibule. Waterproofing is more of a consideration there too as you may very well get rained on if you stay for more than a few days. The hike in isn’t very long, so carrying a bit extra weight isn’t horrible. 

The TNF Assult 2 Futurelight is on my list. What could you say about it? It seems pretty sweet and burly, but my concern is (of course) condensation, since it's a single wall tent. Also is it really 5 pounds? Seems pretty heavy for what it is. 

I've used the MSR Hubba Hubba for a few summer Teton trips and it's been perfectly fine considering its freestanding nature and lighter weight. As mentioned previously, you can girth hitch some rocks at the respective camp sites to tighten up your guy lines. You're going to have a hard time driving stakes in the Tetons.

That said, I have also gone sans tent with an emergency bivy as the foul-weather workaround. I've slept at the moraine, CMC camp, and lower saddle without a tent and have been incredibly comfortable in mid-late summer (late July/August). Obviously, plan accordingly based on the weather forecast, but rain was rarely a concern.

Jay Anderson wrote:

Chris, one or two people in the Samaya?  I saw their diagram showing sleepers head to toe.  How tight is it?

Two people for sure.  It's fairly similar size to any of the other tents I listed up there.  It feels a bit longer than most of the other ones I've been in/owned, but you'd have to look at the specs.  I've always used those tents shoulder to shoulder, not head to toe.

Jack Bushway wrote:

The TNF Assult 2 Futurelight is on my list. What could you say about it? It seems pretty sweet and burly, but my concern is (of course) condensation, since it's a single wall tent. Also is it really 5 pounds? Seems pretty heavy for what it is.

I can definitely say that it's a solid option.  I never had condensation issues with it, and I've used it from -20Fish to 90Fish.  It was my go-to tent for quite a number of years, I think it's an awesome bang for the buck, especially considering it comes with the vestibule.

The weight on their site is really overstated, they are counting the vestibule, tent stakes, stuff sacks, etc.  I never carried the stuff sacks or any stakes, and also ditched the top pole. I once weighed the tent body and the 2 main poles, it came in at 3lb 7oz.

Chris C wrote:

Two people for sure.  It's fairly similar size to any of the other tents I listed up there.  It feels a bit longer than most of the other ones I've been in/owned, but you'd have to look at the specs.  I've always used those tents shoulder to shoulder, not head to toe.

I can definitely say that it's a solid option.  I never had condensation issues with it, and I've used it from -20Fish to 90Fish.  It was my go-to tent for quite a number of years, I think it's an awesome bang for the buck, especially considering it comes with the vestibule.

The weight on their site is really overstated, they are counting the vestibule, tent stakes, stuff sacks, etc.  I never carried the stuff sacks or any stakes, and also ditched the top pole. I once weighed the tent body and the 2 main poles, it came in at 3lb 7oz.

Sweet, thanks for the great info

Trad and Mountaineering are pretty much the same.

To add ;

- A tent with stakes needed to pitch ( AKA not freestanding ) weakness is that they assume all 4 will be on a flat plane, which will never be the case. If not on the same plane it will flap or you will have it down in your face.
- 100" X 83" is way too big for 2 people. For 2 people maybe 90 X 55 sleeping head to toe. ( best arrangement )

- Leave your packs in a contractor garbage bag just outside the opening pinned down by rocks. Vestibules are for cooking, easy access in and out and a rain / snow buffer.

- TNF tents were always too short if either person is 6' in the past. Maybe they've changed ...

- All cross pole, free standing tents. Make sure the guy lines are well secured on all 4 corners halfway up to keep from screwing down and collapsing in wind.

- Always leave the tent as open as possible if not having rain or wicked wind (Or mouse infestation :)). Trapped condensation sucks the heat from your body at night. Minimize it. A person will be warmer sleeping under the stars than in a tent on a cold still storm-less night.

Luke Lindeman wrote:

I've used the MSR Hubba Hubba for a few summer Teton trips and it's been perfectly fine considering its freestanding nature and lighter weight. As mentioned previously, you can girth hitch some rocks at the respective camp sites to tighten up your guy lines. You're going to have a hard time driving stakes in the Tetons.

That said, I have also gone sans tent with an emergency bivy as the foul-weather workaround. I've slept at the moraine, CMC camp, and lower saddle without a tent and have been incredibly comfortable in mid-late summer (late July/August). Obviously, plan accordingly based on the weather forecast, but rain was rarely a concern.

I've been very happy with a 1 person Hubba Hubba. MSR calls it a semi-freestanding tent, the pole supports the inner tent completely and the vestibule has to be staked out. As Luke says, girth hitching rocks with the guy lines will do this. My only complaint with the Hubba Hubba is that the price has gone up a fair bit in the last year or two, but that's probably true of all good tents.

Jack Bushway wrote:

It's the Durston Gear X-Mid 2p Solid. It seems pretty perfect for it's weight/packed size to comfyness ratio, but my concern is that even using rocks to stake the 4 corners, it won't be a tight/stormworthy pitch. Those 4 corner stakes are really crucial cause they need to resist an inward pull, as well as an upward pull.

It's a good tent, I've used mine extensively but I've always been able to get the corners staked down solid.  Your concern is valid - to get a good pitch you have to extend the trekking poles until they put alot of tension on the corner stakes.  

Shane Davis wrote:

It's a good tent, I've used mine extensively but I've always been able to get the corners staked down solid.  Your concern is valid - to get a good pitch you have to extend the trekking poles until they put alot of tension on the corner stakes.  

Sick! Thanks for commenting. It seems the Durston tents are quite popular in the UL hiking world but not really in climbing. I’m stoked to see it in person. 

Shane Davis wrote:

It's a good tent, I've used mine extensively but I've always been able to get the corners staked down solid.  Your concern is valid - to get a good pitch you have to extend the trekking poles until they put alot of tension on the corner stakes.  

Could you comment on how it does in wind? Also, have you ever pitched it well just using rocks at the corners?

Jack Bushway wrote:

Could you comment on how it does in wind? Also, have you ever pitched it well just using rocks at the corners?

We camped at Wild Iris and the wind was howling but it didn't affect the tent at all.  

No, I've never used it secured with just rocks.  

Shane Davis wrote:

We camped at Wild Iris and the wind was howling but it didn't affect the tent at all.  

No, I've never used it secured with just rocks.  

Sweet, thanks!

Another vote for the MSR Hubba hubba

I've been thinking of doing the same! A lot of the climbs in the Sierra are long/flat approach => big rock. So I think it makes a lot of sense. A lot of the continental US, and in particular the Sierra, is comparatively quite stable and a real serious tent is kinda overkill I think. My 3 season has done fine in non-trivial wind (40+ MPH) and cold. Of course, it gets way gnarlier, I guess I'll find out!!

There are a bunch of tricks for staking, I'm still learning but lately I've been happy with my results. In snow, I think horizontal stakes have helped me a ton and now I've got the plastic bag parachute in my back pocket too. And on rock, the pebble + big rock strat has worked flawlessly for me.

Chris C wrote:

For the Cascades, the optimal for me is a lightweight single wall 4 season tent. Rain isn’t much of a concern to me because the outings are usually pretty short and isolated to good weather windows. Weight is really the primary concern because it will be living on my or my partner’s back for essentially the whole time. Reasonable choices in my book would be things in the realm of the BD Firstlight, MSR Advanced Pro 2, TNF Futurelight Assault 2, Samaya Assault 2, Samaya Assult 2 Ultra.

I’ve used the TNF Futurelight Assult 2 pretty extensively and have only good things to say about it. I’ve recently started using the Samaya Assult 2 Ultra, which is simply outstanding. 

You mentioned ground stakes, they go unused for me. (Btw, in the Bugs, anywhere you can put a stake in, you aren’t allowed to camp). Most my overnights are on rock or snow, so guylines are your friends. When on rock, I tighten them around big rocks. When on snow, I either hold them down with pickets/tools or use SMC snow stakes.

For the Bugs specifically, I’ve only been there once for about 10 days. For that specific location, I’d prefer something a little more roomy; if I stick with the same tent I’m certainly bringing the vestibule. Waterproofing is more of a consideration there too as you may very well get rained on if you stay for more than a few days. The hike in isn’t very long, so carrying a bit extra weight isn’t horrible. 

Hey Chris, big ask, but could you pass along the actual measurements of the Futurelight Assault? I'm just over 6' and have read a few reviews that the Assault 2 can feel a bit tight for taller folks and wanted to get some real data.

Small update: X-mid worked great for a U-notch attempt (shut down by super sketchy conditions in the gully -- should've waited for a longer freeze), and absolutely fits inside bivvy sites at iceberg lake. I'll edit this sometime next year based on experience. I'm optimistic so far!

Also, it worked great for my buddy well over 6' sleeping with me (5'10"). so no worries about that.