Pounding pitons .....

I like the idea of having a couple emergency pitons for back country exploring but ....I hate the thought of carrying a heavy hammer knowing it would almost never be used ..... I wondered  ...

Does anyone know if rocks could be used to effectively hammer in pitons ???  Do they direct enough force to the piton .... or do the rocks just break ???

Lots of loose rocks where I usually climb .... in an emergency situation, could I use local rocks to pound in pitons  .... would the piton hold  ???  

If you're going to carry around pitons and want to use them for escape situations, you're going to want to trust them. Use a hammer, and feel good about it knowing you did the most to protect yourself, or use a rock and maybe get away unscathed. Do you want to leave that kind of a consequence up to chance(arguably always a possibility of stuff failing even with proper installation), or do you want to control that by bringing a small, lightweight hammer? hugs.

Better off having some emergency nuts for that sort of thing. Pounding pins in with rocks will not work. 

Gear Guy wrote:

Better off having some emergency nuts for that sort of thing. Pounding pins in with rocks will not work. 

"Pounding piton will not work" is the answer to my question ....thanks .... I do carry some "bailing" hex's ... however ..... there are some places only a piton will fit.

Having a couple pins on hand when doing new routes is a good idea. As is having a hook or two for drilling. I have placed pins with a rock. It kinda works sometimes. As does simply dropping one in behind a flake without any kind of “setting” it. So, having done this in a pinch, my recommendation would be, carry the hammer! 

Carry a lighter hammer. Grivel Thor etc. Also nice for testing holds above your head, rock quality, etc. More than once I’ve scatched a crimp overhead to gauge where the sweet spot is before committing.

Plus you might use a pin for pro and get it back the same day. 

big locking carabiner... your foot?...#10 hex

I keep thinking ... pitons are "dumb" ... I'm pretty sure pitons only recognize the force that they are struck with .... not if that force comes from a hammer, rock, locking biner or #10 hex ...

   I intend to try "pounding pitons" this summer, to see if using rocks works,  ... I can't see any reasonable reason why they shouldn't .....avoiding getting crushed fingers could be the biggest issue .....

What if you can't find any loose rocks?

Rasputin NLN wrote:

What if you can't find any loose rocks?

Very good point ... however ... I climb in the North East  ... there are usually lots of rocks around, usually they're usually pretty tough. Not like out West where some of the rock is so soft.

My question I hope to answer this summer ... is New Hampshire granite tough enough to pound pitons ... or will even "tough" rock break, before providing the necessary force required to drive pitons to a safe depth.

Ian Dibbs wrote:

Very good point ... however ... I climb in the North East  ... there are usually lots of rocks around, usually they're usually pretty tough. Not like out West where some of the rock is so soft.

My question I hope to answer this summer ... is New Hampshire granite tough enough to pound pitons ... or will even "tough" rock break, before providing the necessary force required to drive pitons to a safe depth.

I don't  know where you are planning on placing any pitons but NH locals will be happy to educate you about the ethics of pounding pitons in that tough granite  

Ian Dibbs wrote:

Very good point ... however ... I climb in the North East  ... there are usually lots of rocks around, usually they're usually pretty tough. Not like out West where some of the rock is so soft.

My question I hope to answer this summer ... is New Hampshire granite tough enough to pound pitons ... or will even "tough" rock break, before providing the necessary force required to drive pitons to a safe depth.

If you want to carry a rock around to see if it works then by all means. I was just trying to point out that you should carry a hammer if you're going to rely on placing pins since it's possible there won't be any loose rocks where you want to place one. You also have to consider that pretty much anything heavy and durable could pound a pin into a crack that's splits a flat rock face, but if the placement is weird, like in a broken corner or something, you might not have the reach or be able to get enough of a swing while using a rock to really drive it home.

This thread needed a single response….this will be an easy way to get yourself killed.  Bring a hammer.

Peter Beal wrote:

I don't  know where you are planning on placing any pitons but NH locals will be happy to educate you about the ethics of pounding pitons in that tough granite  

I think you may have mis-interpreted my response .... I'm not going to N.H. to pound a rack of pitons up a virgin New Hampshire rock face with chunks of granite to see if they hold  ... I intend to collect rocks from different climbing locations (Cannon, Mt Washington, Northern Adirondacks) to a "test crack",  to see if rocks are capable of driving pitons deep enough to safely rappel from. A question I believe relevant to those wondering about potential climbing "escape" tools.

   I'll never carry a hammer ... they are WAY to heavy ... because I've never placed a single piton my entire life ... I would be willing to carry a 2 oz piton, if I knew it was strong enough to hold an emergency rappel ...

Ian Dibbs wrote:

I think you may have mis-interpreted my response .... I'm not going to N.H. to pound a rack of pitons up a virgin New Hampshire rock face with chunks of granite to see if they hold  ... I intend to collect rocks from different climbing locations (Cannon, Mt Washington, Northern Adirondacks) to a "test crack",  to see if rocks are capable of driving pitons deep enough to safely rappel from. A question I believe relevant to those wondering about potential climbing "escape" tools.

   I'll never carry a hammer ... they are WAY to heavy ... because I've never placed a single piton my entire life ... I would be willing to carry a 2 oz piton, if I knew it was strong enough to hold an emergency rappel ...

Uhhhh people take big whippers off all kinds of "pitons". Sooooo..... YEAH, they'll hold your body weight for a rappel. 

"if rocks are capable of driving pitons deep enough to safely rappel from"

well if they aren't, you will certainly find out quickly enough, though hopefully the rock you're pounding with breaks before you find yourself committing to an inadequate rappel anchor. Good luck either way.

But seriously this is all kinds of wrong. As with any enterprise, select the correct tools for the job. And yes NE locals will not be happy to hear about randos leaving pitons around on their crags. Climbing back down what you climbed up is the best escape option in most situations.

Fail Falling wrote:

Speaking of wasting time .... it's odd that your would spend your time "editing" my post into something offensive ....

If you're doing routes that require you to seriously consider bailing on a pin, they're new alpine VI+ routes in AK or DEEP in the cascades in winter. I bring pins for mixed climbing on choss in winter. I would bring pins on a desert mudstone aid route. I would bring pins for a mega new FA.

If you're looking to use a pin to bail, it's usually because there is literally no other option but to use that bugaboo or sawed off lost arrow. Not only are nuts and hexes fine protection for a rap off, they're often safer because you (should) have a lot of practice placing nuts. I have only bailed off a piton once and it was fixed gear in an already decomposing smear of choss that took a nut well. We don't often practice placing pins any longer, which isn't to say they're never appropriate, but is to say that the hard men and women of the 80's figured out how to climb 5.12+ on offset nuts just fine. Holding yourself to a technical standard is probably a better ethic than pounding a pin with a rock. 

That being said, let's just follow the thought process through. You want to save weight by pounding a pin with a rock. You only ever really need to use a pin because the rock is bad enough to require a pin. That means the rock is friable or ice choked, or falling apart, or expands when you're placing any other kind of pro. The piton GARUNTEES security, because it's usefulness in this age presupposes your ability to not only be an exceptional leader on gear, but an exceptional risk assessment machine. So, if the rock is so fucking gross that you're gripped and NEED to bail because you don't think anything will hold aside bodyweight, you're going to what, pick up a piece of this terrifying rock? Where? Aren't you in aiders in January in the Karakorum? Randomly there's a rock when you are most scared and need to bail and it's made out of the same shit you don't trust to hold a fall and are questioning whether or not it will hold a rap? 

TL.DR: If you're ready to bring bail pins because you're doing mega shit often enough you know you need them for emergency bail anchors, you're already sufficient enough at rock craft to know you need a hammer to drive them. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Who saws off Lost Arrows? just learn how to tie off a pin properly. 

Learn how to place a nut, said everyone since 1979

Spencer Moore wrote:

If you're doing routes that require you to seriously consider bailing on a pin, they're new alpine VI+ routes in AK or DEEP in the cascades in winter. I bring pins for mixed climbing on choss in winter. I would bring pins on a desert mudstone aid route. I would bring pins for a mega new FA.

If you're looking to use a pin to bail, it's usually because there is literally no other option but to use that bugaboo or sawed off lost arrow. Not only are nuts and hexes fine protection for a rap off, they're often safer because you (should) have a lot of practice placing nuts. I have only bailed off a piton once and it was fixed gear in an already decomposing smear of choss that took a nut well. We don't often practice placing pins any longer, which isn't to say they're never appropriate, but is to say that the hard men and women of the 80's figured out how to climb 5.12+ on offset nuts just fine. Holding yourself to a technical standard is probably a better ethic than pounding a pin with a rock. 

That being said, let's just follow the thought process through. You want to save weight by pounding a pin with a rock. You only ever really need to use a pin because the rock is bad enough to require a pin. That means the rock is friable or ice choked, or falling apart, or expands when you're placing any other kind of pro. The piton GARUNTEES security, because it's usefulness in this age presupposes your ability to not only be an exceptional leader on gear, but an exceptional risk assessment machine. So, if the rock is so fucking gross that you're gripped and NEED to bail because you don't think anything will hold aside bodyweight, you're going to what, pick up a piece of this terrifying rock? Where? Aren't you in aiders in January in the Karakorum? Randomly there's a rock when you are most scared and need to bail and it's made out of the same shit you don't trust to hold a fall and are questioning whether or not it will hold a rap? 

TL.DR: If you're ready to bring bail pins because you're doing mega shit often enough you know you need them for emergency bail anchors, you're already sufficient enough at rock craft to know you need a hammer to drive them. 

Well written ... your comment shows experience and knowledge, thanks for taking the time to share.

When posting .. I didn't expect to have to defend when "pounding a piton" would be necessary or justified .... only if a rock could work.

  An extremely knowledgeable, industry professional, who is a regular poster to this forum has done quality research, which shows that piton holding strength depends on the amount of forces used to drive it between the rock surfaces... the more you pound it in the more it holds ....not if that force came from a stainless steel hammer, or a rock. My question was intended to be a more "technical question" ... do strong rocks have the mechanical properties to be able to transfer enough energy through them, to be able to drive pitons into rock, or do they break apart first ???.... a question yet to be answered. !

I'll collect some rocks myself this summer and start pounding to find out .... I'll use different rock types to pound with, and see if they "hold together" or fracture before pitons reach a "safe" depth for rappelling

 My specific situation where I feel an emergency piton could be useful do me is .... I do a lot of backcountry Northern Adirondacks exploring where the rock is usually smooth, featureless Anorthosite, rarely any "good" pro opportunities, however it occasionally has tight cracks .... (think Poko-Moonshine) .... frequently the back country rock is covered with treacherous moss/slime, There have been times I believed it was safer to move downwards by rappel, not by downclimbing slippery ADK slabs, especially after a surprise rainfall. So far now I've found trees or cracks large enough to accept nuts to do emergency my rappels from .... I wondered about carrying a piton ... just in case no trees or big cracks could be found.