Retiring CAMP Quickdraws Due to Wear/Tear on the Dogbone

I've started climbing at a new gym and noticed that some of their QDs in the lead climbing area use regular CAMP dogbones instead of using a more bomber cable or chain perma-draw. In my opinion, many of the dog bones look ready to be retired. Turns out, the dogbones were manufactured in 2010.  

I know the general consensus amongst climbers and manufacturers is to retire softgoods when they show obvious signs of wear– like fraying, sun bleaching, tears, and burns. But...

Does anyone have any leads for CAMP's official manufacture guidelines for when to retire their quickdraws due to wear on the dogbone? Or guidelines for their soft goods (i.e., sewn slings) in general? 

I ask because I want to propose that the gym update its equipment for obvious safety reasons and have some legit evidence for why. I don't just want to sound like a crusty, stuck-up new guy.  

Thanks! Let's get this gym to invest in better bomber gear. 

I've never seen a gym use wire or chain draws. 

Also, if you read beal's little pamphlet they say if a draw has been fallen on it should be retired, the insurance plans won't be reliant on following manufacturers' recommendations.

Has there been an issue with these dog bones failing?  Really, absent exposure to UV or abrasion, nylon will last pretty much forever. I doubt that there is significant UV exposure in a gym. 

Local gym uses wire draws. Woof

Just my $.02 is that soft goods are usually good for about 10 years. Now there have been lots of studies that show that dogbones like that retain a majority of their strength over time, even after 10 years. My one concern is that these dogbones are put to work. They are used every day, multiple times a day. Its not like my own rack of draws that gets used a handfull of times a year in comparison.

Should you tell the gym? Sure, you might want to just kindly ask what their strategy is on replacing gear like that. are YGD? no. But i like where your head is at thinking about safety!

I would be more concerned about aluminum carabiners and wear over time than the nylon dogbone.   

Stuff falls apart in museums.  The gym needs to replace them.  

In recreational use no one would bat an eye at 2010 draws.

Your case is a professional setting with everyday, many times a day use. They should be retired and replaced. 2010 is unacceptable imo.

Bb Cc wrote:

If some new draws are purchased which location on a route do they serve best to fend off lawsuits?

Haven’t failed in 12 years, but then 7 years ago they were only 5 years old.

50 routes, 8 draws/rte, 400 draws @$15? : $6,000. Adopt-a-route?

    blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Gyms should be able to get dogbones for around $2/ea. Carabiners  should be replaced based on inspection/wear, not age.

I would be much more concerned with significant carabiner wear than nylon age.

If a gym isn’t spending the cost of an annual membership on dogbones once every decade, I don’t want to think about what other corners they’re cutting.

Teddy Dondanville wrote:

 I don't just want to sound like a crusty, stuck-up new guy.  

Too late.  

Gyms replace their ropes typically once a year.

If there is no significant UV dog bones will last a long time, but still... that seems like an excessively long time for a gym to go without replacement.

Everyone seems to think 10 years is a long time yet nobody can offer a concrete reason why this is unsafe. Is there visible damage? Is the gym use exceeding some sort of cycle limit for the material?

Big Red wrote:

Everyone seems to think 10 years is a long time yet nobody can offer a concrete reason why this is unsafe. Is there visible damage? Is the gym use exceeding some sort of cycle limit for the material?

Nylon is a fairly robust material.  I had a 20 year old 10.5mm rope tested that for the last 5 years was used as a rap anchor on top of a route.  It was exposed to sun, rain and snow for 5 years and was faded and stiff.  When tested it broke around 3000lbs.  Not too bad for an extremely abused rope.

Big Red wrote:

Everyone seems to think 10 years is a long time yet nobody can offer a concrete reason why this is unsafe. Is there visible damage? Is the gym use exceeding some sort of cycle limit for the material?

Government agencies and such use life cycles to manage maintenance to avoid relying on the fallible judgement of individuals. But, in reality, soft goods last rather long. Think about the seatbelts in that 1980s car. Do they need to be replaced because they're 40 years old? Doubt it. But the gym is foolish to have 13 year old dog bones up just from a liability standpoint. When someone gets hurt because one of those fails, even if it wasn't really because of age, that becomes a great story for the  personal injury lawyers to tell a jury. 

Teddy Dondanville wrote:

I've started climbing at a new gym and noticed that some of their QDs in the lead climbing area use regular CAMP dogbones instead of using a more bomber cable or chain perma-draw. In my opinion, many of the dog bones look ready to be retired. Turns out, the dogbones were manufactured in 2010.  

I know the general consensus amongst climbers and manufacturers is to retire softgoods when they show obvious signs of wear– like fraying, sun bleaching, tears, and burns. But...

Does anyone have any leads for CAMP's official manufacture guidelines for when to retire their quickdraws due to wear on the dogbone? Or guidelines for their soft goods (i.e., sewn slings) in general? 

I ask because I want to propose that the gym update its equipment for obvious safety reasons and have some legit evidence for why. I don't just want to sound like a crusty, stuck-up new guy.  

Thanks! Let's get this gym to invest in better bomber gear. 

Call CAMP.

But the gym should have a written policy regarding the time period draws get replaced as mandated by their insurance.

The draws are probably fine though, post pics.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I would be more concerned about aluminum carabiners and wear over time than the nylon dogbone.   

Pretty sure all the carabiners in my gym are steel. None of them have even a hint of wear. 

Car seatbelts are rarely nylon.

Maybe if the draws were pre-2000 or even older. But otherwise, why bother? Nothing is going to happen to you or anybody else because the dogbones are 10 years old. Maybe the gym should care because of liability issues but its hard to see why if the dogbones are inspected regularly. 

Privately, nobody bats an eye climbing on 10+ year old nylon slings. Somebody recently replaced some fixed draws on a steep route at a local crag that were DMM from the mid 90s or so (the ones with the sewn-in dogbones). They weren't replaced because of the nylon dogbones but because of the aluminium carabiners showing wear.

I was always under the impression that camp was an odd one out with their 12 year thing, but even if it was 2022, hard to imagine the insurance folks would be happy to see this given the commercial/indoor use case. Surely a yellow flag that the systems are not being competently/ regularly inspected.

Ref: camp.it/api/GetFile/2957745…