Are dyneema/Cuben fibre backpacks worth it?

When I say « worth it » I’m not even talking about the price per se but is the quality gap significant enough to justify buying one?

Manufacturers talk about increased toughness, UV stable, lighter… does that translate in real life use?

Wifey is thinking about breaking the bank for me but i m still hesitant. 

I have been using a 62L Zpack for about five years now. Approximately four trips each year. I don't see a "quality gap."  

I was concerned that the ultralight weight pack would mean inadequate padding and poor suspension, but I was wrong. I lightened the load in all aspects, not just the pack. Although there is less padding, I am carrying less weight, overall, so I don't need as much padding.

It takes a bit of planning to pack properly, as there are fewer pockets on the pack. 

The main reason I got this pack was its weight (24 oz). 

I have one small tear that I sewed up. The tear was from leaving a spoon handle sticking out into the pack, puncturing the back of the pack. I now put the spoon in my bear canister or bear bag, along with any other sharp objects (tent stakes, etc.)

I won't be using a full weight pack again. My previous pack was 4-1/2 pounds.

Fabien M wrote:

When I say worth it I’m not even talking about the price per se but is the quality gape significant enough to justify buying one?

Manufacturers talk about increase toughness, UV stable, lighter… does that translate in real life use?

Wify is thinking about breaking the bank for me but i m still hesitant. 

DCF/Cuben fiber is absolutely not worth the premium as a pack fabric. The dyneema (UHMWPE) component is non-woven strands sandwiched between layers of PET film (Mylar) with an optional woven polyester face and inner fabric (DCF-H). The UHMWPE strands only improve tensile strength, not abrasion/puncture resistance. It’s great as a tent fabric though.

Other laminated fabrics in the same weight class perform very similarly at a lower price; XPAC (woven nylon or polyester face, reinforcement grid, PET film, optional woven inner), EcoPAC (woven polyester inner and outer sandwiching a reinforcement grid with a waterproof laminating adhesive).

EPLX/Ultra uses a woven UHMWPE/Polyester face and waterproof film backer, and has insane abrasion resistance at a similar price point to DCF-H.

Gridstop (there are a number of different brands) is a non-laminated fabric that uses woven nylon  with a UHMWPE ripstop grid and has superior durability to DCF-H, is much cheaper, but only as waterproof as a traditional PU coated pack fabric.

Good old 400D+ nylon packcloth is still a perfectly usable option, and significantly more durable than DCF-H, just  heavier than the fancier materials.

ETA: if you’re looking at the big HMG packs, and don’t need specific features, SWD (made in Michigan) does a $$$, minimalist, lightweight expedition pack with better materials and a much better suspension design. https://www.swdbackpacks.com/product-page/big-wild-70l-ultra400 

Eli W wrote:

DCF/Cuben fiber is absolutely not worth the premium as a pack fabric. The dyneema (UHMPE) component is non-woven strands sandwiched between layers of PET film (Mylar) with an optional woven polyester face and inner fabric (DCF-H). The UHMPE strands only improve tensile strength, not abrasion/puncture resistance. It’s great as a tent fabric though.

Other laminated fabrics in the same weight class perform very similarly at a lower price; XPAC (woven nylon or polyester face, reinforcement grid, PET film, optional woven inner), EcoPAC (woven polyester inner and outer sandwiching a reinforcement grid with a waterproof laminating adhesive).

EPLX/Ultra uses a woven UHMWPE/Polyester face and waterproof film backer, and has insane abrasion resistance at a similar price point to DCF-H.

Gridstop (there are a number of different brands) is a non-laminated fabric that uses woven nylon  with a UHMWPE ripstop grid and has superior durability to DCF-H, is much cheaper, but only as waterproof as a traditional PU coated pack fabric.

Good old 400D+ nylon packcloth is still a perfectly usable option, and significantly more durable than DCF-H, just  heavier than the fancier materials.

This.

Once DCF/Cuben begins fraying it’s a nightmare to deal with too. Xpac, challenge ultra and sometimes just cordura are better

The answer is, it depends. 

What do you want the pack for? Ultralight backpacking? General purpose pack? Mountaineering/climbing pack? 

Imo the only place where its appropriate to use a non woven dyneema pack material is backpacking. Beyond that it lacks the durability to last very long as a pack, this works well here as it allows you to really take advantage of just how light the fabric can be. 

Woven dyneema packs are mega pricy but also nearly indestructible, ecopak ultra is a nice middle ground being a dyneema polyester blend. 

I spent a lot of time last year thinking about getting one of these packs.  In particular I was very interested in the prism by hyperlight prism pack.  I like a brain on my packs and super light packs made from these materials rarely have a brain.  

I eventually decided against the purchase because I just don't see the value.  The main motivation was weight savings which was minimal.  The prism weighs 2.2 lbs, the mutant 38 weights 2.5lbs or 2.7lbs depending on size.   I am skeptical that the suspension, fit and features would be as good and mature as the mutant's.   The only possible advantage would be durability which I am also skeptical of.  The prism is more than twice the price.  

I actually tried one of the ultralight dynemma tents.  It was hands down the worst tent I have bought in my 50 years of backpacking and climbing.  I used it twice before giving it away.  The pole punctured the body of the tent through the mounting point while tensioning the tent.  My wife in a $150 3lbs tent was warm dry and comfortable while I in my $570 1.7 lbs ultralight tent was wet, cold awake and miserable using the tent like a bivy sack.  I learned my lesson.  Lightweight gear must also function or it is not worth having.

I’ve been using a CCW Valdez for a dozen years or more (burly and probably outlive me) and started using a HMG Prism about four years ago. I like how light the HMG pack is however when they’re both packed with the same gear the CCW carries a bit better and is a little more comfortable. Not a huge difference though. So which one I carry these days depends on the approach and the climb. Usually CCW for ice cragging type days and HMG when there’s longer approaches and multi pitch climbs.

is the HMG pack worth the price - for me it was based on the weight difference. As reference I’m 63 and lighter helps! 

I’m a big fan of the HMG Prism for technical mountaineering, I've used it nearly since it came out. For context, I came from using the Arcteryx FL 45 and Mammut Trion 50 for years.

The Prism is very purpose built, modular, carries well, is light, and robust. I don’t feel that it’s lacking in any category within it’s reasonable use cases. I haven’t found another pack that does all those things as well as the Prism. I also find that it fills the gap for two packs that many people tend to have due to it’s modularity of suspension/weight- a smaller single day ~30L pack, and a 1-2 night ~50L pack. In the Arcteryx family, it basically replaces the use cases of both the Alpha FL 30/40 and the Alpha AR 55. 

I think it’s hard to beat when looking at all of those things. Whether or not it is “worth the price” is up to the individual user. 

that guy named seb wrote:

What do you want the pack for? Ultralight backpacking? General purpose pack? Mountaineering/climbing pack? 

Woven dyneema packs are mega pricy but also nearly indestructible,

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys! I didn't  know about all those nuances...

I ll be using this pack for mountaineering and ice climbing, I would be looking at a 30 liters.

Out of curiosity would you have examples of woven dyneema packs?  

No. 

Mark NH wrote:

I’ve been using a CCW Valdez for a dozen years or more (burly and probably outlive me) and started using a HMG Prism about four years ago. I like how light the HMG pack is however when they’re both packed with the same gear the CCW carries a bit better and is a little more comfortable. Not a huge difference though. So which one I carry these days depends on the approach and the climb. Usually CCW for ice cragging type days and HMG when there’s longer approaches and multi pitch climbs.

is the HMG pack worth the price - for me it was based on the weight difference. As reference I’m 63 and lighter helps! 

Interesting.  The current version of CCW Valdez weighs 2.1250 lbs, barely lighter than the 2.2 lbs for the Prism.  

Fabien M wrote:

Out of curiosity would you have examples of woven dyneema packs?  

The high wear areas (bottom, sides, crampon patch) of the HMG Prism are woven dyneema. Apparently HMG stopped selling the Dyneema Ice Pack which is 100% woven dyneema. I have two of them after Backcountry accidentally listed them for the normal Ice Pack price -20%, and I can say they will outlive me.

I like this video torture test of HMG’s woven dyneema:

https://youtu.be/VolERCETQ_U

FWIW regarding other fabrics, I think Mountain Equipment’s Tupilak fabric beats Arcteryx’s Alpha FL fabric. I absolutely destroyed an FL30 in a year with 3 day a week use.

I’m not super-familiar with them, but I think HYPERLITE backpacks are in this category. A friend has one. She got it free, I believe, and initially because of ice climbing. But she’s using it for rock climbing, too. I got to carry it one day, and was very impressed with how light and comfortable it was, fully loaded.

“Worth it” is relative. I’m not running out to buy one right now, bc I have a pack I’m happy with. But if I were shopping for I new one, I definitely would consider it. The price difference isn’t that big, and for me personally a lighter pack that fits well would be worth a premium. But my first priority would be good fit, and not the few ounces of weight difference. 

Fabien M wrote:

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys! I didn't  knew about all those nuances...

I ll be using this pack for mountaineering and ice climbing, I would be looking for a 30 liters.

Out of curiosity would you have examples of woven dyneema packs?  

Cilo gear use a woven dyneema, milet have a model that uses a dyneema weft and samaya reinforces certain areas on their packs with a woven dyneema. As someone else mentioned HMG used to but I imagine it was a pretty small market.

You will probably be able to find other cottage manufacturers out there who could make you a woven dyneema pack, someone like alpine ludites maybe. But we are getting into mega money here I warn you. It's seriously pricey stuff. 

https://www.cilogear.com/3004.html

Cilo aren't the most expensive out there but you can expect a wait. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Cilo gear use a woven dyneema, milet have a model that uses a dyneema weft and samaya reinforces certain areas on their packs with a woven dyneema. As someone else mentioned HMG used to but I imagine it was a pretty small market.

Looks like they use "woven dyneema". I'm 0% an expert in what this means.

I've always felt like HMG kind of sells at a "discount" to Cilo and other brands, which is maybe why we dont see too many of of the Cilos in the wild anymore.  All their other dyneema packs other than the 30L are between $500-$999. 

Samaya also recently launched their ULTRA35 bag at the $450 price point.

Fabien M wrote:

I ll be using this pack for mountaineering and ice climbing, I would be looking for a 30 liters.

Have you considered the Arcteryx FL 30 or 40?  Those things are bomber, light, and carry well enough for single day adventures.  It's hard to see the value in any of these other packs in discussion if you aren't planning on using them for multi day purposes.  I still use my FL 45 a ton for single day outings (mostly to keep the Prism shiny lol).  

Chris C wrote:

Looks like they use "woven dyneema". I'm 0% an expert in what this means.

They use both; the “DCHW” is woven dyneema, the DCH50/150 are nonwoven.  Then you need to really dig around to figure out what packs use each material, and where they use it.  For example the Prism uses both but it doesn’t say where (see Brie’s post above for actual details).  Ice Packs are all non-woven. Porters are nonwoven.  Headwall has woven on the bottom and “high abrasion points” (whatever that means).

The cynic in me thinks that this isn’t by accident (and certainly not limited to HMG); this fabric stuff is tricky to keep track of and a large part of the market just assumes white = dyneema = bullproof, and sadly it’s way more nuanced than that.

The good news is that in reality you can do just fine with a non-woven pack (99% of the world’s major climbs were done that way), so even if your HMG pack isn’t woven dyneema it could still be a great pack.

What about this one? which kind of dyneema are they using? https://www.expedusa.com/collections/alpine-backpacks/products/whiteout-30
Here are the infos they are giving:
Body: Dyneema® composite fabric (150 D polyester face fabric, Dyneema® fiber grid, TPU film inside), 20'000 mm water column 

I feel like descriptions are sometimes a wee confusing, especially when I m reading all the nuances you guys posted, maybe it"s on purpose, I don't know...

Fabien M wrote:

What about this one? which kind of dyneema are they using? https://www.expedusa.com/collections/alpine-backpacks/products/whiteout-30
Here are the infos they are giving:
Body: Dyneema® composite fabric (150 D polyester face fabric, Dyneema® fiber grid, TPU film inside), 20'000 mm water column 

I feel like descriptions are sometimes a wee confusing, especially when I m reading all the nuances you guys posted, maybe it"s on purpose, I don't know...

They are using a dyneema composite that uses a polyester face fabric and in certain areas a generic dyneema ripstop. 

Chris C wrote:

Samaya also recently launched their ULTRA35 bag at the $450 price point.

Have you considered the Arcteryx FL 30 or 40?  Those things are bomber, light, and carry well enough for single day adventures.  It's hard to see the value in any of these other packs in discussion if you aren't planning on using them for multi day purposes.  I still use my FL 45 a ton for single day outings (mostly to keep the Prism shiny lol).  

I m not sure I like the Samaya design, anyway it's too expensive for me. also only the bottom is woven dyneema apparently. 
As for the FL30 I m currently using one that is very similar (but better IMHO) the Exped Black Ice 30. 30 liters is definitely the right size for what I m doing.
I was posting because I m considering going with a Dyneema option as an upgrade.
Not sure it would be much of an upgrade after reading all of you.

If its under $500 then the pack is not using 100% woven dyneema and is using some sort of blended fabric or is a laminate. 

climber pat wrote:

Interesting.  The current version of CCW Valdez weighs 2.1250 lbs, barely lighter than the 2.2 lbs for the Prism.  

That’s interesting indeed. My Valdez is old so maybe there’s some difference there so let’s say there’s a pound difference. The Valdez still seems heavier when carrying same gear. Maybe it’s the way the gear “fits inside” - I don’t know.