Down as an an active midlayer

Hey folks.  There was another thread that talked about this but I think it deserves some more attention. 

All the big players (Arcteryx, Patagonia, North Face etc.) seem to be pushing light down sweaters, jackets, and hoodies as active midlayers...

How can that work?  I forsee sweat, soaked down, and subsequent clumping and cold. 

For casual wear, fine, far enough.  But for movement, for actual climbing?  Not unless is was really cold out...

Am I missing something here, or is this just a way to sell lots of light, profitable pieces to people who won't really use them for activity?

Bruno Schull wrote:

Am I missing something here, or is this just a way to sell lots of light, profitable pieces to people who won't really use them for activity?

IMHO, yes. I would never use down as a mid layer in my life for actual active days out. I sweat way too much  for a layer like that.  Down to me is for slow activity days or going to work. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

All the big players (Arcteryx, Patagonia, North Face etc.) seem to be pushing light down sweaters, jackets, and hoodies as active midlayers...

They are marketing them as jackets, not as an active mid layer, people wear them to go bowling not as a mid layer. It's trendy, people like the micro baffle look, that's it.  

How can that work?  I forsee sweat, soaked down, and subsequent clumping and cold. 

It doesn't work. 

For casual wear, fine, far enough.  But for movement, for actual climbing?  Not unless is was really cold out...

No one wears down as a mid layer when active. 

Am I missing something here, or is this just a way to sell lots of light, profitable pieces to people who won't really use them for activity?

So you already know the answer, yes, they sell well and have good margins. It expands their market reach and subsidises all the good gear they make for people who actually care. 

Down only works as an active mid layer if you’re a bird. Otherwise, no.

Beg to disagree. When I ice climb, I usually wear a micro puffy under my soft shell jacket. It goes on after the approach, never before. No sweat. 

@ Dara -- thanks for that data point.  That's what I mean...am I missing something?

I can see it working in really cold and dry weather under a thin softshell of (very) breathable hardshell.  

I almost want to give it a try...but I live my synthetic breathablke midlayer too much and I generally run hot anyway :)

B

Synthetic puffy while moving uphill or climbing, with a down puffy in the pack for belays or descent.  Or, really, really cold days.

I suppose if I was just romping around without much load or purpose, I could do so solely with a down puffy as my insulating layer, and have visions of myself looking like something out of their catalog photos, all happy, unburdened and introspective and stuff, mostly stuff.  But, man, I just sweat too much, curse too much, trip over every this and that too much.  The synthetic puffy, while not all that great an insulating layer just handles my level of misery better.  Down puffy is best reserved for when Miller Time is easily in sight.

I think a lot depends on your personal thermostat and activity level.  I typically run warm but have been using light down jacket as a midlayer while skiing the last few seasons. (Lift access skiing, so no skinning, etc. but I like to think I try hard.). I also use one rock climbing when it’s cold out and can deal with it up to first try hard climb after warming up.  Harder or project type climbing it mostly is too restrictive and or warm.  I don’t ice climb or go mountaineering which both seem more intense for longer periods of time than ski runs or single pitch climbs.  I could see sweating too much then. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

All the big players (Arcteryx, Patagonia, North Face etc.) seem to be pushing light down sweaters, jackets, and hoodies as active midlayers...

Can you post a few references of marketing material suggesting this usage?  That would certainly be an odd trend.

@ Kyle

OK, sure

For example, go to North Face --> Summit Series --> Breithorn hoodie (A down fill hoody)

"Lightweight, packable warmth is what makes the Men’s Summit Series Breithorn Hoodie the perfect mid layer for all types of alpine adventures. With a helmet compatible hood, raglan sleeves for enhanced mobility, and the ability to stow in its own pocket, you can easily pack this jacket for convenient coverage on the go."

That's just one example. 

Also, anectodally, I see lots of people out at ice crags in Switzerland, France, and Italy, or in Chamonix (it's own country) wearing down under Gore Tex.  Sure, they're not all experienced climbers, but some are, and I assume that (part of) the marketing message is driving the decision people make.  

Last season I did some ice climbing in really cold and dry conditions.  I forgot my outer and mid layers, and climbed in light approach tights and long sleeve top + a huge puffy down belay jacket.  It actualy worked realy well.  I was warm and dry.  Any sweat just moved through the system and evaoporated in the cold and dry air. 

Most days, when it it warmer and wetter however, I would have been miserable.  I got lucky!  

Anyway, for the right individual/metabolism/activity level, and with the right environmental conditions, I guess it can work. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

"Lightweight, packable warmth is what makes the Men’s Summit Series Breithorn Hoodie the perfect mid layer for all types of alpine adventures. With a helmet compatible hood, raglan sleeves for enhanced mobility, and the ability to stow in its own pocket, you can easily pack this jacket for convenient coverage on the go."

This is really generic marketing copy, I would not interpret that as a suggestion that it is intended to be used for high-output (high perspiration) activities.

Also, anectodally, I see lots of people out at ice crags in Switzerland, France, and Italy, or in Chamonix (it's own country) wearing down under Gore Tex.  Sure, they're not all experienced climbers, but some are, and I assume that (part of) the marketing message is driving the decision people make.

Ice cragging isn't really a high output activity, it's generally low commitment, and if you're wearing a hardshell the breathability of everything under it doesn't matter nearly as much because the hard shell on top isn't really breathable.  I suspect that people aren't doing steep vigorous approaches in down + hardshell though...

Anyway, for the right individual/metabolism/activity level, and with the right environmental conditions, I guess it can work.

I think this is accurate.  For high output activity, you want something that breathes (downproof fabrics don't) and something that can handle some moisture (down can't).  But not everything is high output, so if you're really strategic you can use down some of the time.  It just gets a lot more complicated to plan because you need to foresee what the day ahead of you will bring, and if you're wrong it might be a problem.

I have used my MH Ghost Whisperer as a midlayer under a light breathable rain jacket and l have liked that. It’s usually while multipitch trad climbing easy grades.  But I do run cold and do not sweat much.