Climbing and law school?

WHOA. People actually have real jobs and climb?

abe r wrote:

WHOA. People actually have real jobs and climb?

Amazingly enough some of them climb quite well too - just under the radar and not on social media

Gerald Adams wrote:

As a state government lawyer ,I climbed in Yosemite every Spring & Fall for 20+ years ,ice in Canada , went on  Himalayan expeditions ,skiied every Winter ,back packed every Summer, sailed a Hobie , & cycled to work. My legal work was interesting & I had a life .

Genuinely curious what job you had that allowed you to go on Himalayan expeditions and still have a job when you got back. 

The rest of the activities you list seem very doable with normal pto for a government lawyer. 

Eric Engberg wrote:

Amazingly enough some of them climb quite well too - just under the radar and not on social media

WHOA. People climb and aren't on social media?

What a mind blowing AM this is turning into.

Kevin Kent wrote:

Genuinely curious what job you had that allowed you to go on Himalayan expeditions and still have a job when you got back. 

The rest of the activities you list seem very doable with normal pto for a government lawyer. 

I am a government attorney and I get five weeks per year (after putting my time in). It helped that I spent several years as a prosecutor, which classified me as “law enforcement” and allowed me to earn leave accrual at an accelerated rate, although I really didn’t have time to use it as a DA. Now, as a legal office troll, I do have the time. I also have the option to take unpaid leave with approval, which I have not taken advantage of. 

I went to law school in the US, did a PhD (in law) in Australia, and I’m now a law professor in NZ. I have always climbed 3-4 days per week (usually at least 2 outdoors).

A lot is achievable with a supportive family, reliable partners, prioritisation, staying true to your values, and avoiding the many pressures and petty competitions that are common in the legal field. I love this profession, but it can also be utterly awful so it helps to align yourself with people who share your passions, goals, and values whilst avoiding those who don’t. 

Law school won’t be your problem for climbing. I went to a top school, did very well, was on law review, etc., but still got out climbing a bunch. Just treat it like a 9-5 (ie stay on top of your reading during the week between classes, etc) and most of your weekends are free. Plus I had a few semesters with no Friday classes, so I got out on weekdays sometimes too. 3rd year is fun—very easy. 

The problem is actually being a lawyer. If you go to a big firm, you’re not gonna climb much (although if you’re committed and have no family, you’ll find ways to get out here and there, and you’ll be able to afford last-minute flights when your case settles on the eve of trial). Other jobs (govt/public interest) will let you get out on weekends. But lawyers (and most of all, judges) don’t really believe in “vacation,” despite what anyone tells you during an interview. Definitely govt is better on this front. But the idea that someone might want to go away and not look at emails for a week or two is so completely foreign to most lawyers that you’re going to run into some friction in that front.

Lots of lawyers on this forum will tell you they managed, and I’m sure they did. But they’re the exception. Generally lawyers are married to their jobs and not understanding of those of us who aren’t. And if you’re a litigator in govt or a small firm, you’ll find that your real boss is the judge you’re asking a continuance from, who probably got where he or she is in his or her career because they hate fun almost as much as they hate their families.  

Finally, it’s worth mentioning that location is a HUGE factor. If you’re in a big city, you’re going to be immersed in a workaholic culture. More rural areas are WAY more accommodating of work/life balance. (It’s not a coincidence that the schmuck is from New Mexico!!) I’ve done both and it’s a radical difference—even firm life in Albuquerque is more laid back than govt work in NYC.

So, it’s doable, but it’s not travel nursing, that’s for sure. 

Edit to give some bottom line advice: if you want to be a lawyer and also climb, work for the government in a rural area. And in law school, work towards that goal.

Alec O wrote:

if you want to be a lawyer and also climb, work for the government in a rural area. And in law school, work towards that goal.

Or work as in-house counsel for Delta Air Lines.  All your travel is free.  Fly anywhere in the world no $$.   

Alec O wrote:

Finally, it’s worth mentioning that location is a HUGE factor. If you’re in a big city, you’re going to be immersed in a workaholic culture. More rural areas are WAY more accommodating of work/life balance. (It’s not a coincidence that the schmuck is from New Mexico!!) I’ve done both and it’s a radical difference—even firm life in Albuquerque is more laid back than govt work in 

I did spend a few years as a violent crimes prosecutor with a caseload of 50+, and I made it out to France, Canada and Argentina twice. The trick was to have my office mates cover the conferences, interviews and other pre-trial matters.  I’d return the favor, and planning around trials themselves was reasonable. Of course, when actually in trial, I’d often sleep in the office, or not sleep at all. Longest trial I had was thirteen days…that one was rough. 

I’ll jump back into this thread again. I’m just wrapping up a 50 year career as a public defender—state agency—first in an urban area, last 30 years more small city/rural. It is a demanding job, especially psychologically, that never really leaves you (I often find myself thinking of case scenario’s on belay ledges, approaches, walk outs, etc.), but, beyond that aspect, while in law school and throughout my career I have been able, because I prioritized doing so, to maintain a good life/work balance, including family life, various activities, and lots of climbing—both close to home and trips ( no Himalayan expeditions, but some extended trips—thanks to a flexible agency management). I’m surely not rich and was very fortunate that I didn’t have to deal with modern higher education debt, but still have been able to have a comfortable life and a satisfying career. So it is doable both while in law school and beyond.

As far as job opportunities, while a decade ago there was a glut of law school grads, that doesn’t seem to be the situation currently. I know that my Agency, even my specific office, is having trouble attracting good candidates, even at a time when our salaries are getting to more reasonable levels. I understand that the prosecutor’s offices are having similar issues—very unusual because that job has always been an attractive option for ambitious young attorneys. I believe that is also true in other areas of the profession, especially in the government and public service sectors.

I climbed a lot in law school (pre-gym era) and still did pretty well.  I graded-on to law review and had my law review note published in the journal of international law at a first tier law school.  Worked about 3 years for a big firm and paid off my fairly modest student loan debt.  That immediate post law school time period wasn't too much fun but I still climbed regularly.  After that I worked for a non-profit outfit basically 9-5 with two hours at lunch to train for bike racing and went part time at 45 with full retirement at 50.  So by 45, I could climb as much as I wanted and still had some years left climbing about as good as I ever had.  It wasn't a bad way to go but I'm not sure I'd do it that way again.

John Gill wrote:

Much of what is said here applies to working toward a PhD. In math, from what I've read, it's a highly competitive job market for tenure tracks. Enjoy what you're doing and have an inquisitive mind, law, or math or whatever.

Main differences: a Ph.D takes longer, costs less, and generally doesn't provide training for lucrative jobs.

I thought CU and UofA were the only good options and went with UofA because they offered me an in state level tuition scholarship.  Avoiding debt can help keep your options open.  You have to find something you like in law, but it might take longer than you expect.  I only climbed once a week, studied all the time and made great grades with the intent of keeping all the doors open.  The change in lifestyle ended my first marriage which had grown when we were both doing out door work.  I had spent about 10 years before law school guiding for AAI, different OB schools and other organizations.  Don’t allow an image of who you are that is formed in your own imagination and the perceptions of others limit your options.  You can change many lifestyle practices without sacrificing your core integrity.  Also, I disagree with the idea that law school gives you training for a lucrative career.  It might help you get in the door of organizations where you will receive such training, but it might also get you into the door of many other organizations where you will receive training for a long, potentially satisfying, but low paying career.  Law school doesn't teach you how to practice law.  That takes practice, mentorship, guidance, initially simple assignments that might embarrass you if you can't set your ego aside, and so forth.   

Law school (and a legal career) is what you make of it. My biggest complaint about law school (besides the cost) is that while in school, they beat you over the head that you have to choose one of two options. Either work for the government/NGO or work in big law. In reality, there are many other options. I know many solo practitioners or small firm attorneys who maintain excellent work/life balance while still earning a good wage. I also took a non-traditional path and now work as an in house attorney for a solar company focusing on the business side and essentially working as the attorney for a large sales team. I make good money and have a ton of flexibility to work remote and set my own hours. I went to Vermont Law School and spent more time climbing than studying but did fine grades-wise. It is what you make of it. Don’t fall into the hyper competitive nonsense.

Lastly, at least for me, it took time to make this career work. My first four or five jobs were awful and made me question whether law was the right choice for me. I kept pounding the pavement until I found a situation that worked for me. One nice thing about being an attorney is you have way more flexibility than simply being a litigator or working for the government. Your skill set is flexible and highly transferable to many other things besides being a “garden variety” attorney (no offense to folks who pursue a traditional legal career).

I don’t know why I’m surprised, but the amount of climbing lawyers who check mountain project forums is definitely more then I would’ve thought there’d be

John Gill wrote:

Much of what is said here applies to working toward a PhD. In math, from what I've read, it's a highly competitive job market for tenure tracks. Enjoy what you're doing and have an inquisitive mind, law, or math or whatever.

Sadly a PhD in just about any academic field, even many hard sciences, in 2022 is a fool's errand even with a full ride. In the humanities, absolutely forget it. I would strongly advise anyone thinking about academia to steer well clear. Few other careers are staring down the "demographic cliff" (google it, not a good cliff) like higher ed is. Things are going to get very bad very soon at many colleges and universities and they're already not good.

Graduated in 2014. Had plenty of time to go to the gym. Squamish on some weekends and took the summer after 1L off to climb.

It’s possible to do, you just have to be efficient with your time, which is obviously true for all of law school.

I was involved in the law students society, the indigenous laws students association, as well as a few other clubs. I certainly wasn’t the best student in my cohort, but I had a social life outside of studying. 

Graduated in 2017 from a top 15 law school (did the whole law review editor thing) and worked in big law for a few years before moving to a mid-size firm in a smaller market.  Climbing through law school wasn't bad at all, but it takes some effort to keep it up as a lawyer.  

I think the answer depends largely on how much you are willing to sacrifice your career to continue climbing, and how much you are willing to sacrifice your climbing for your career.  For example, I recognized immediately that I had no intention of making partner in big law as doing so almost ensured that I would climb less than I wanted to (and live in a city with less accessible local climbing).  On the flip side, while I still climb in the gym a few days a week and get outside every other weekend, longer trips are very rare these days and I certainly don't live the on-the-road lifestyle that I used to.  I am okay with that trade off -- but it is something to consider before you get too far along down this path.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions about law school and life as a climbing lawyer!

Cheers!