Why the hate on laybacking?

I recently discovered this gem, and while I certainly understand it being held up as an exemplar of what not to do in many regards (e.g., gear placement and management), I don't really get why there's so much hate on his laybacking of a crack that is in an open book. This seems an appropriate approach to this feature. Can someone explain this particular criticism to me?

Jamming in that scenario would be less strenuous and more secure.  

It’s inherently unstable. Pulling and pushing pressure is all that keeps you on. So the pump clock runs a lot faster than if you become proficient at jams.

To make matters worse, you can’t see the gear you’re placing.

So a run up a corner on TR in full layback simply isn’t a realistic example of what actually leading the route is like. It doesn’t count.

That said, sometimes it’s the best and only way to climb something. I’ve failed more than once straight in only to come back and employ a jamming layback technique successfully.

You look like a gumby when you layback a hand crack.  Simple as.

I'm a big fan of laybacking... Especially offwidths. If you're on the sharp end and placing gear, it's your fucking preference. There is no cheating. So long as you aren't pulling on gear, you just do what you gotta do to get up the route. 

There is nothing "wrong" about laybacking a crack, just like there is nothing "wrong" with campusing a roof climb. Sometimes the simplest/easiest way to climb is by laybacking just like it is sometimes easiest to campus a move. 

In this case though, it is clearly less strenuous and more secure to jam the crack straight in. More than that though, it is simply unsafe to layback this crack for the reason shown at the end of the video. If someone falls while laybacking it, they invert in the fall. This person was just a few feet away from falling headfirst into a rock... If you are jamming a crack and fall, your center of mass is inline with the rope and generally fall feet first. Pretty much every fall I've taken while laybacking I've inverted, and can't recall ever inverting on a non-layback climb.

Also when people grade routes they assume you are using the most efficient technique for the climb. This climb is rated 5.7, so the climber probably though "oh, this is very easy." But it is only 5.7 when jammed, it looked like 5.10+ the way the climber was trying to do it... 

It is more appropriate to layback an open book feature when it is off-vertical. There are lots of moderate pitches in Yosemite which follow open book features that are either too wide or too narrow to effectively jam, but are slabby so one can get lots of purchase with the feet without cranking hard on the arms. Lots of classic examples of this are found at the five open books area. There are also a lots of laybacking on harder climbs which aren't the right size/shape to jam (like the Enduro Corner on Astroman and Freerider). In this clip you can see Alex Honnold switching between jamming technique and laybacking based on the size of the crack.

Here is a video of the same route with better technique.

El Duderino wrote:

I recently discovered this gem, and while I certainly understand it being held up as an exemplar of what not to do in many regards (e.g., gear placement and management), I don't really get why there's so much hate on his laybacking of a crack that is in an open book. This seems an appropriate approach to this feature. Can someone explain this particular criticism to me?

The only way I'm falling out of a perfect hand crack is if I'm not jamming. Laybacking can be more efficient, but it's always less secure too. Up to the climber to make a well reasoned decision for security or efficiency. In that video, dude clearly chose wrong given his ability. Speaking only for myself, if I can't lean into the wall when I need to place gear, I'm not laying back on lead. The efficiency gain is not worth it.

I found the laybacking vs straight-in climbing to be one of the least interesting things about the video..

As with all things, climbing and otherwise, it’s situation dependent. If you want to be a proficient crack climber at high grades, you better be able to jam, lie back, boulder, offwidth, etc. your way through hard sections.

It’s funny how people demonize one method or the other. Try and have as many tools in your toolbox as possible. I’m quite content to lie back when it seems optimal even though I prefer to lock or jam if given the option. 

you better be able to jam, lie back, boulder, offwidth, etc. your way through hard sections. 

It’s funny how people demonize one method or the other. Try and have as many tools in your toolbox as possible. 

Right.

What's cool is fluency. What I mean: each crack climbing technique might be thought of as, I dunno, words maybe? Tools, Whatever. I like words better, more malleable. Anyway, on any given crack, I might end up using jamming, smearing, laybacking, crimping, elbowing, shoulder counter-pressure, etc; in like a 10 or 20 foot section even. It's like stringing words together, and learning the language between me and the crack. At first it might be word salad and my words and my sentence might not make any sense. But over time, I do and did learn the language, and I learned the slang and most importantly, I learned to communicate and write, if you will, in the language of the rock climbing. Sentences became fluid, as did my technique. I began to use the right words at the right time. I began to get subtle in my sentence structures. 

You should jam it. You should layback it. You should crimp holds on the face, You should pressure your shoulder in to take the weight off some other part of your body. That whole combination could be like, two moves up any given crack.

Learning to speak these words and languages gives us confidence when looking up at some silent, frowning beast of a crack and wondering, how am I going to talk to this thing?

Sing it a lullaby!  

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Right.

What's cool is fluency. What I mean: each crack climbing technique might be thought of as, I dunno, words maybe? Tools, Whatever. I like words better, more malleable. Anyway, on any given crack, I might end up using jamming, smearing, laybacking, crimping, elbowing, shoulder counter-pressure, etc; in like a 10 or 20 foot section even. It's like stringing words together, and learning the language between me and the crack. At first it might be word salad and my words and my sentence might not make any sense. But over time, I do and did learn the language, and I learned the slang and most importantly, I learned to communicate and write, if you will, in the language of the rock climbing. Sentences became fluid, as did my technique. I began to use the right words at the right time. I began to get subtle in my sentence structures. 

You should jam it. You should layback it. You should crimp holds on the face, You should pressure your shoulder in to take the weight off some other part of your body. That whole combination could be like, two moves up any given crack.

Learning to speak these words and languages gives us confidence when looking up at some silent, frowning beast of a crack and wondering, how am I going to talk to this thing?

Sing it a lullaby!  

This is one of the most poetic MP posts I’ve ever seen 

Yeah, it would have been pretty straight forward to just jam it. It would have been less strenuous and he would be able to see and place gear more easily. And it can be tricky to manage your rope well as to not flip upside down when you fall lie backing which he nicely demonstrated. Kind of stressful to watch when he has trouble finding the right sized gear when he is secure and he is placing almost blind while lie backing and you can tell he is running out of gas. Glad he didn’t get hurt.

That being said, some climbs require lie backing. One climb I can think of is either full on overhang or lie back, and most including myself find it less strenuous to lie back. But I have small hands so I can full on crack climb what most dudes find impossible and have to resort to lie backing. I practice lie backing at my gym because it is so strenuous. 

In addition to the issues other folks have mentioned, laybacking has the problem that getting in and out of the layback can be very insecure. I really felt that vicariously at the end of the video, when he was obviously getting tired and struggling. Feeling the situation through the go-pro view, my brain is screaming at me to get out of the layback position and into a jam, because I'm in danger of a ground fall if I don't get another piece in, and that's just not going to be possible in a layback position that I can just barely maintain. But even if this guy had enough crack technique to formulate that plan, it looks like it would actually have been extremely difficult to achieve it from out of the layback.

Others are commenting that his flipping upside-down when he fell was related to using laybacking instead of jamming. I guess that makes sense if it's your hands that peel off rather than your feet, but in this video it seemed like they both slipped off about simultaneously. It seemed to me that the issue had more to do with the fact that he had the rope between his legs, and his left foot caught on the rope.

Once he realizes he's going to fall, he starts walking his hands down in order to get lower, but he seems to leave his feet in place. That puts him in a more and more unstable position, leaning back.

A bit off topic, but if you frequent Pacific Pipe in the Bay Area, there is a similar open book style crack there. The hands narrow into fingers higher up and, for few moves, it gets overhanging. 

I've tried my hardest to jam but always resort to liebacking. Makes it much harder and I punt off. The crack feels a bit flaring too. Any ideas how one would stay on on an overhanging open book crack? 

To bring it back to the video,  it did look like he could've had good jams there at the end...

Prolly cuz they can't layback.

Poor guy, that video is from 5 years ago. He just didn’t know how to crack climb at that time and did the best he could. Hopefully, he’s doing better now.

Cherokee’s post was beautiful.

Everybody is talking about laybacking being strenous but I will sometimes go into a layback position ro rest for a minute. Not to move up but to shake out. I particularly seem to do this on 2 routes at my gym that are mostly vertical ringlocks. I can get a good bicep rest in a layback. 

Adam Pequette wrote:

Here is a video of the same route with better technique.

Alex Lowe-“the best climber is the one having the most fun”. The climber that fell on layback was laughing and high (low) fiving his belayer. By definition he is the better climber than the guy calmly jamming (boring) his way up. 

Greg R wrote:

Alex Lowe-“the best climber is the one having the most fun”. The climber that fell on layback was laughing and high (low) fiving his belayer. By definition he is the better climber than the guy calmly jamming (boring) his way up.

I'll agree with that sentiment.  I'll also bet you that the guy wants to succeed on that climb.  Lie backing always has a place but so does jamming.  How do you know that someone who jammed it and got up the thing didn't have more fun?

Greg R wrote:

Alex Lowe-“the best climber is the one having the most fun”. The climber that fell on layback was laughing and high (low) fiving his belayer. By definition he is the better climber than the guy calmly jamming (boring) his way up. 

It looked like he came super close to having a ground fall. "Fun" would be more like doing the same thing in a situation where there was nothing to hit or you were able to get in more adequate pro.