Gear nerds: which is the holy grail CAMP alpine draw configuration?

Photon Wire on both sides

• Full size carabiners for easy handling
• No keylock nose (vs. Dyon)
• Light but not super light, takes up more space on harness than Nanos
• Marketed as the Alpine Express if you buy it premade
• Cheap but not the cheapest combo

Nano 22 on both sides

• Lightest and most compact combo
• Some people hate the small carabiner size, arguably the hardest to clip. But the Nano 22 is probably the best handling small carabiner and many others say it’s no problem.
• Cheapest combo
• You have to make your own for this combo, can't buy as a package deal

Dyon on both sides

• Full size carabiners for easy handling
• Easiest clipping with special keylock nose
• Heaviest combo
• Most expensive combo
• You have to make your own for this combo, can't buy as a package deal

Nano 22 gear side, Photon Wire rope side

• Hybrid of weight savings (Nano) on the gear side and full size rope carabiner for easy handling (Photon)
  • Smaller carabiner is less of a disadvantage on the gear side
• Need to rerack by putting the Nano through the Photon unless you want to fiddle (Photon doesn't fit through Nano)
• Average price but cheaper than a Dyon on rope side
• Marketed as the Mach Express if you buy it premade

Nano 22 gear side, Dyon rope side

• Hybrid of weight savings (Nano) and easiest handling/easiest clipping of them all (Dyon)
• Small carabiner is less of a disadvantage on the gear side
• Need to rerack by putting the Nano through the Dyon unless you want to fiddle (Dyon doesn't fit through Nano)
• Bit more expensive than Nano and Photon but not as much as two Dyons
• You have to make your own for this combo, can't buy as a package deal

I do double photons. Buy whatever feels nice to you and which you can afford comfortably.

I personally like Photon x Photon because IMHO 1) the Dyon's aren't that much nicer to justify how much more expensive they are 2) I prefer the full-size carabiner for easy handling and 3) the components are easy to find everywhere + cheap. If you make your own go gunmetal (dark grey) or titanium (silver) for gear side and pick your favorite bright color for the rope side! The premade orange is also pretty cool and doesn't come in a Photon rackpack or match any cams.

I tried Nano gear side and Photon rope side for a while and liked the compactness/light weight, but ultimately didn't notice the weight savings that much whereas I did faff about reracking/unracking the gear side carabiners on my harness more vs. the Photons. The Nanos are also worse to clip (relatively) when you're pumped or on harder routes even though they are the best-handling small carabiner in my opinion and not THAT bad.

Daniel Kay wrote:

I do double photons. Buy whatever feels nice to you and which you can afford comfortably.

I have a feeling this is the most popular combo even though it's not the most "optimized." Nobody ever complained about this combo in my experience... can't go wrong! But if my friend wants to burn money for a set of Dyon x Dyon alpine draws I'd use them first when we're climbing together   

Double Nano. Even for ice with gloves. 

Light is right (when you rope solo and carry both the rack and rope, and do twice the climbing).

I have sort of fat and fairly uncoordinated fingers and I have absolutely no issue handling and clipping nanos. I don't ice climb, but for rock they're freaking awesome. Hella light is hella right.

Have a partner or two who have Nanos on their cams and I do not like them. They just feel too small to get off my harness. My double Photon alpine draws however, love. Easy to handle, plenty of space in the instance it's needed. 

I did the math. If you have 30 Photons vs Nanos (say 10 alpines and 10 cams), you are carrying an extra 240g/ 8oz. Roughly the same weight as a large orange. I'm good with that trade off. 

Doubles nano draws. Even just single nano slings if I’m really trying to shed weight.

I used to do the nano/photon combo, but those grams add up a lot. Particularly when you are big walling with a huge rack.

I have a friend that uses the Edelrid 19g  carabiners on her cams, quickdraws and alpine draws. Everywhere. Her rack is noticeably lighter. Although her partners usually hate using her stuff lol. 

Dyon does fit through the Nano. I have 22's gear side and Dyon rope side. I already had the 22's otherwise I'd be tempted to use all Dyons, I really like the snappy the gates and thin nose on them

Double nanbow all the way!!

For reference I have what are probably above average size hands and average fine motor skills. No issues with crux clipping.

why just camp?

I mostly have nanos-photon alpines. What I find is that my partners often can't figure out which side goes rope and which goes gear, but it doesn't really matter.

If I'm trying to be super light in the alpine I create nano-nano draws. 

Mitch L wrote:

why just camp?

Because most everything else is heavier and Camp is usually the least expensive. It also has the best handling of anything that size/weight. It’s widely available in all the usual colors plus orange, and dark grey

Although, I have started using the DMM Chimera as a cam racking carabiner. The clean nose is really nice for getting it off slings or from my harness, especially when the gear loops are full. Also much nicer for grabbing a cam from the other side of the harness with the wrong arm. Since BD discontinued the OZ carabiners people that want a keylock wire gate have had to look for something else.

The Petzl Ange S is the lightest of the clean nose or keylock designs but some dislike it’s single wire gate design. And it only comes in grey or orange, maybe blue but not the full range of colors. The nose of this carabiner is super thin, so it fits well into chains, quick links, hangers, pitons all really well and it does come in a larger frame just like the nano/photon from Camp.

The Edelrid 19g is the lightest but is considered far too tiny for most users to enjoy. It does come in all colors and does handle surprisingly well for something that small. It’s worth having a few for racking items like a water bottle, shoes, knife or whatever you don’t need to use all that often.

The wild country nitro is good. Mad rock stuff is good too. 

I don’t really care for the new offering from BD to replace the OZ. I don’t like it’s square shaped nose area,  although it does actually provide a different sense when you think about whipping on one. At least that’s what the neutrino carabiners feel like. Those do feel more bomber than the camp carabiners. If you’re going to be whipping more, I would use those for their rope bearing surface as it’s so much better for the rope than a thin carabiner like the nano 22. 

What else do people use for carabiners? 

Alpine climbing: nano nano (62g)

Cragging: dyon dyon (86g)

Long multipitch: nano dyon (74g)

25cm dyneema dogbone + nano nano (54g) has replaced ~80% of my alpine draw usage. Easier to clip and no faffing for decent amount of extension w/ cams.

Nanos on all cams. 

Scott D wrote:

Alpine climbing: nano nano (62g)

Cragging: dyon dyon (86g)

Long multipitch: nano dyon (74g)

25cm dyneema dogbone + nano nano (54g) has replaced ~80% of my alpine draw usage. Easier to clip and no faffing for decent amount of extension w/ cams.

Nanos on all cams. 

Camp sells nano x nano quickdraws with an 18cm dyneema dogbone! They have a cool red and white color scheme too. Nano 22 Express KS: backcountry.com/camp-usa-na…

If I was limited to only Camp, then I'd get the nanos for their lightness for sure. Camp should sell packages that include cam lube and a pre-paid return box with all their carabiners though for the inevitable 10% that go faulty. 

i mean if you're after the Holy Grail, the Nano 22 gear side x Dyon rope side is the way to go. 

If you want to go light af, put Nanos on both sides and the new 8.5mm slings... that is my current set up and super light! 

One thing to note is that with photon x nano (and I assume dyon x nano), it's nearly impossible to triple up the sling by passing the large biner through the nano. With newer followers (or myself too, if the stance is awkward) I find it can be nice to triple the draw back up while the gear end is still clipped to the follower's gear loop to make it impossible to drop anything. Can't do that if a nano is the gear end for a photon/dyon. Personally I use photons, I like the gate action, and some of my older draws were photons so I like the consistency. Some of my partners use dyons and they are great too; can't really go wrong. Re: pricing, dyons are really not that much more expensive if you divide the extra cost out over the lifetime of the carabiner. Edit: didn't see this was already mentioned above in the original post!

Elliot K wrote:

One thing to note is that with photon x nano (and I assume dyon x nano), it's nearly impossible to triple up the sling by passing the large biner through the nano. With newer followers (or myself too, if the stance is awkward) I find it can be nice to triple the draw back up while the gear end is still clipped to the follower's gear loop to make it impossible to drop anything. Can't do that if a nano is the gear end for a photon/dyon. Personally I use photons, I like the gate action, and some of my older draws were photons so I like the consistency. Some of my partners use dyons and they are great too; can't really go wrong. Re: pricing, dyons are really not that much more expensive if you divide the extra cost out over the lifetime of the carabiner.

Why do you have to pass one carabiner through the other. You realize there's a gate on that thing, I'm sure. Just clip the sling through. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

Why do you have to pass one carabiner through the other. You realize there's a gate on that thing, I'm sure. Just clip the sling through. 

Have you ever tried to do it one handed with one end attached to your harness?

My alpines are nano x ange s .

Ange s is the only sub 30 gram biner with a decent edge radius for the rope that I know of. 

I have some Dyons for ice (to sub out nanos) since the gear loops on my blue ice harness are small cord. Nanos are too small for gloves IMO.