Climbing a tree with prusiks questions

I'm planning to climb some trees by ascending a rope using two prusiks (using technique described here) - so far I've been practiciing in my backyard. 

I'm trying to figure out the proper technique for unweighting the rope in order to switch from ascend to descent using a belay device. Could anyone advise me on that?

Also - Is my 10 years old son old enough for such ascends? Assuming he can prusik up fairly easily in my test setup, and I'll add another safety rope 

Some adults aren't old enough for jugging a rope by themselves. On the other hand, I taught myself to prusik in trees (from a book lol, youtube was still just funny cat vids at that point) when I was 10 or 11.

To transition: 

first, make sure you can't die (pull up some slack, tie a loop clip to yourself, ie catastrophe knot)

if you had your foot loop on the lower prusik, attach it to the upper prusik

attach belay device below prusiks

stand up on foot loop, pull slack through belay device

now take your foot out so you are weighting the belay device

remove prusiks and rap

Be aware of the possibility of being out of reach of the prusiks still on the rope above you, and don't let that happen.

How are you going to a) get your rope up in the tree, and b) how are you going to secure it there?

Also - there are other (easier) ways to ascend a rope, if you have the hardware for it. A Grigri makes ascending easy and transitioning to descending absolutely trivial.

https://youtu.be/RWSVpnEQ-EY This video might be more helpful than that article. If you have an ATC with a guide plate, it makes it a lot easier. I'd also like to point out that generally, tying into the belay loop is considered bad practice. That is what your tie-in loops are for. I hope I don't come off as condescending, but make sure to analyze, criticize, and cross check the information you are getting online before using the techniques. I am also a beginner and have not paid anyone to train me (although I did take a 30 day mountaineering course when I was 16). I am learning from videos and a climbing textbook I purchased. One thing I've realized is that climbing is still pretty new, and what is considered safe today, might be sketchy in 5 years. So strive to not only understand the techniques you learn online, but also to improve them if possible. 

When it comes to your kid, you are the best judge. Sure a 10 year old CAN do that, but specifically is YOUR 10 year old capable of it? I think only you can answer that.

Gunkiemike wrote:

How are you going to a) get your rope up in the tree, and b) how are you going to secure it there?

Also - there are other (easier) ways to ascend a rope, if you have the hardware for it. A Grigri makes ascending easy and transitioning to descending absolutely trivial.

We already tried climbing a 5m tree, all went well. Now aiming for a 12m one near my home.

I'm using a throwing weight and some thin line to get the rope up, and just sling it over. I didn't secure it - just climbed and rappelled both lines

For my kid I added another 8mm rope which I held with my hand at one end and the other one goes over the same branch and secured to his harness (the branch provided enough frictrion)

Regarding other ways - I actually prefer this to be simple and physically challenging, since the goal is to excersize as well and not just to "get there". 

J C wrote:

Some adults aren't old enough for jugging a rope by themselves. On the other hand, I taught myself to prusik in trees (from a book lol, youtube was still just funny cat vids at that point) when I was 10 or 11.

To transition: 

first, make sure you can't die (pull up some slack, tie a loop clip to yourself, ie catastrophe knot)

if you had your foot loop on the lower prusik, attach it to the upper prusik

attach belay device below prusiks

stand up on foot loop, pull slack through belay device

now take your foot out so you are weighting the belay device

remove prusiks and rap

Be aware of the possibility of being out of reach of the prusiks still on the rope above you, and don't let that happen.

I tried your method though I didn't went well for me for some reason.

I ended up doing the following: The chest prusik is extended with a short sling, and when transitioning I just insert my belay device under it and then unweight the prusik using legs, and descend while holding both prusiks with hands (if upper prusik gets weighted by accident - there is always the foot one to unweight it). My son managed to do it quite easily.

Regarding making sure I don't die - I did what you mentioned. For my kid I just added another rope which I hold with my hand (Which I can also use to lower him down if he can't switch to belay device)

W J wrote:

https://youtu.be/RWSVpnEQ-EY This video might be more helpful than that article. If you have an ATC with a guide plate, it makes it a lot easier. I'd also like to point out that generally, tying into the belay loop is considered bad practice. That is what your tie-in loops are for. I hope I don't come off as condescending, but make sure to analyze, criticize, and cross check the information you are getting online before using the techniques. I am also a beginner and have not paid anyone to train me (although I did take a 30 day mountaineering course when I was 16). I am learning from videos and a climbing textbook I purchased. One thing I've realized is that climbing is still pretty new, and what is considered safe today, might be sketchy in 5 years. So strive to not only understand the techniques you learn online, but also to improve them if possible. 

When it comes to your kid, you are the best judge. Sure a 10 year old CAN do that, but specifically is YOUR 10 year old capable of it? I think only you can answer that.

My current harness doesn't have a belay loop - just a single tie in.

I'm getting a caving harness next which will have a D carabiner, so everything will be attached to it.

michael v wrote:

We already tried climbing a 5m tree, all went well. Now aiming for a 12m one near my home.

I'm using a throwing weight and some thin line to get the rope up, and just sling it over. I didn't secure it - just climbed and rappelled both lines

For my kid I added another 8mm rope which I held with my hand at one end and the other one goes over the same branch and secured to his harness (the branch provided enough frictrion)

Regarding other ways - I actually prefer this to be simple and physically challenging, since the goal is to excersize as well and not just to "get there". 

My only caution is that if you get close to the branch that the rope goes over, your prusik (or other rope grab hitch) on both lines is going to stop working. The rope strands pull the hitch apart.

Gunkiemike wrote:

My only caution is that if you get close to the branch that the rope goes over, your prusik (or other rope grab hitch) on both lines is going to stop working. The rope strands pull the hitch apart.

A solution is to essentially girth hitch the climbing rope around the tree limb:

a) toss thin cord over limb,

b) tie dropped end of cord to middle of rope,

c) pull middle of rope up over branch and back to ground,

d) feed rope tails through bite at middle of rope,

e) pull on tails of rope to raise middle of rope back up to limb, letting cord go back up as well to help with undoing everything later.

Repeats can be hard on bark. Rope needs to be four times as long as height up to limb.

You need a belay device to hold your son. Holding the rope with your hand may work, until things go wrong

W J wrote:

One thing I've realized is that climbing is still pretty new, and what is considered safe today, might be sketchy in 5 years.

Umm. What?  I just watched the movie “Dirt Bag Climber”. He started climbing circa 1930’s. And he wasn’t the first. 

Greg D wrote:

Umm. What?  I just watched the movie “Dirt Bag Climber”. He started climbing circa 1930’s. And he wasn’t the first. 

I mean yeah,  but 90 years isn't long at all. And it wasn't even considered a sport until the 50's. Regardless, I definitely wouldn't call it old considering other sports have been around for 3000+ years. 

W J wrote:

One thing I've realized is that climbing is still pretty new, and what is considered safe today, might be sketchy in 5 years. 

That was true for highlining 10 years ago when I taught myself. It is not the case for highlining anymore. It has not been the case for climbing since before I was born. The early days of MTB (ie riding beach cruisers on trails) was like that too.

New sports don't have gear purpose made for them.

New sports don't have instruction manuals.

New sports don't have international organizations and affiliated safety labels.

New sports don't have CE requirements for their gear.

New sports have paradigm changing gear advances regularly occur.

New sports don't have summer camps you can sign your 10 yo up for.

New sports don't have insured and accredited guides.

J C wrote:

It has not been the case for climbing since before I was born.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying climbing hasn't changed since before you were born? And if so, may I ask about how old you are?

I'm 27, climbing for 15, and I contend that climbing has been a mature sport since I was born. Put another way, I think none of the "best practices" in climbing 27 years ago would be considered unsafe today, even if they aren't still considered best practice. The changes that have occurred have been incremental, not paradigm changing. Totem cams, 8.5 single rated ropes, Tomahawks, inflatable portaledges and lighter carabiners are incremental changes. Paradigm changes were removable pro, first cams, first rubber shoes, sport climbing and nylon ropes.

As a contrast, let's consider highlining. Ten years ago, if you wanted to rig a 500' long highline, you needed a continuous 500' piece of webbing. It was considered unthinkably stupid and unsafe to join pieces of webbing together in the middle of a highline. Any of the methods available seemed super sketch, and with the world record around 500', it wasn't that hard to just use continuous webbing. Today, the world record highline is something like 2 km, which is 6500'. That was made possible because highliners figured out how to rig segmented highlines, which are actually far safer in medium to long length lines. So highlines went from "must only be continuous webbing" to being made of 60 m long segments of webbing in the space of ten years. Also over that time period the "cutting edge" of highlines were progressed by an order of magnitude.

Another highline example is what we call an adequate backup. It used to be common to thread 9/16" webbing through 1" tubular climb spec, in order to make is stronger and less stretchy. Many early highliners used this as a main line with a separate backup, but in the very early days, some people considered the 9/16" webbing to be the backup, even though the webbings were connected to the anchor in the same point. That level of redundancy was deemed insufficient and quickly faded away.

J C wrote:

I contend that climbing has been a mature sport since I was born. 

Well, my whole point is that regardless of how perfected everyone tells you a technique is, you should still maintain a healthy amount of skepticism, take what you hear with a grain of salt, and strive to improve upon what others have started. If people used information from the internet that was 27 years old, there would be a lot more climbing accidents. And if people in 10 years use outdated information, there will be more accidents than if they were to use current information of the time.

Greg R wrote:

You need a belay device to hold your son. Holding the rope with your hand may work, until things go wrong

Yes I do that now with a figure 8 descender tied to my harness. 

I also plan to use a pulley to rise my 5 y/o daughter. Is 1 line with its end backed up by a figure 8 belay device enough? Or the backup line should be separate from the one I'm rising her with?

Another question - can I use my caving harness (with very low attachment points) for tree climbing? I mean I'd use it to ascend to tree's upper part and then continue to climb "on foot" using branches, while harness is used as a backup (for an event of a fall)

The idea behind it (apart from the fun part) is to train myself to handle the fear of heights

Going to break my reply into the main topics:

Figure 8 to belay

Are you aware of the proper way to belay with the little hole of the fig 8? Probably won't be an issue either way you use it because it is a backup and would see very little force even if engaged. Still worth knowing the best way to do it though. (Using a figure 8 to belay, or really use at all, would fall into the category of outdated techniques that W J brought up.) Also, when you say "tied to your harness," I'm curious if that means you aren't using a carabiner? Belaying through the little loop will require a carabiner.

Hauling your daughter

Climbers are the wrong people to ask about hauling live loads. We don't know how, despite the theoretical discussions about hauling an injured partner. It is a very dangerous prospect for the person being hauled. Obviously the risks are somewhat mitigated by having line of sight and communication with the person. However, trees are full of branches, and I could imagine your daughters head getting hauled into one, among other risks.

SAR, who actually know how to haul live loads, require different safety precautions than recreational climbers. One of these measures is generally having parallel redundancy in haul systems. Rescue loads are much higher than one person's weight, because you have a victim in a litter with an attendant. Much heavier than your average 5 year old.

Recreational climbers generally find parallel redundancy laughable in rope systems for something simple like jugging/rapping (in the absence of sharp edges or abrasion potential). To make an educated decision about backup systems, I'd first evaluate for potential unnoticed abrasion. Given there is no rock around, I'd guess this is unlikely. Then think about the safety factor of the rope. I have no idea what rope you have, but hopefully you do, and can divide its MBS by 2 to approximate knot losses. Figure out your daughter's weight (in the same units as the ropes reduced breaking strength, lbs or kn) and divide the rope strength by that, there's your safety factor for the rope. Climbers often operate with a safety factor as low as 3 or less, but OSHA or similar will dictate a safety factor of 10 for life supporting soft goods.

Caving harness

I know almost nothing about caving gear. Rope use in caving amounts to basically either jugging or rapping, which is what you'll be doing and harnesses don't know whether they are in trees or caves. Do caving harnesses require a chest harness too? A lot of the jugging systems that cavers use require a chest harness, so it is possible that a chest harness is required with it. Read the instructions that came with it.

When you say you will be climbing the branches with the harness in case of a fall, are you imagining staying below the point where the rope is anchored to the tree?

Conclusion

Are you a rock climber? Anyone is welcome to post on MP (just look at the troll dribble that doesn't get deleted), so I don't want to alienate you. No requirement to be a rock climber. But if you are principally interested in tree climbing and caving, there are forums with people more knowledgeable on those topics.

I had a lot of fun as kid learning to prusik in trees, and the rope tricks I learned were a valuable base before I really started climbing. I learned all sorts of skills, like tying a comfortable harness out of webbing. That said, if your goal is to get comfortable with exposure on rock, I think building trust in typical climbing protection systems would be more applicable.

Lastly, I am all for intentional risk taking, as my post history will attest to, and I believe strongly in individual choice to accept as much risk as one chooses. However, I am very conservative with the risks that I let others assume, and endeavor to only let partners accept risks that they fully understand. Doing things with your loved ones that you both enjoy can make great memories, but if someone doesn't know enough about the risks they are taking to give informed consent, then it is really on the more experienced person to make sure nothing goes wrong.

 Also, when you say "tied to your harness," I'm curious if that means you aren't using a carabiner? Belaying through the little loop will require a carabiner.

Carabiner to my harness, connected to the little loop, and the rope is in the big loop (around the little one)

I have no idea what rope you have, but hopefully you do

Its a 10mm static rope designed for speleology - I think for a 15kg girl I'll have a very high safety factor

Caving harness

I've already read that caving harness is dangerous if a long fall is expected due to inversion risk

When you say you will be climbing the branches with the harness in case of a fall, are you imagining staying below the point where the rope is anchored to the tree?

I guess there might be moments when I'll be above if I don't have a branch in front of me to click in to.

Are you a rock climber? Anyone is welcome to post on MP (just look at the troll dribble that doesn't get deleted), so I don't want to alienate you. No requirement to be a rock climber. But if you are principally interested in tree climbing and caving, there are forums with people more knowledgeable on those topics.

I'm an amateur caver, but haven't gone to vertical caves yet. I started bouldering a bit. And I got enough info from you guys here. Don't feel I have a need to "dig too deep" in specialized forums

I had a lot of fun as kid learning to prusik in trees, and the rope tricks I learned were a valuable base before I really started climbing. I learned all sorts of skills, like tying a comfortable harness out of webbing. That said, if your goal is to get comfortable with exposure on rock, I think building trust in typical climbing protection systems would be more applicable.

My current goals with trees (apart from fun) are: Beat fear of height, and train SRT ascent and descent (I started with prusiking but I'm switching to a proper system soon)