Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Favorite ATC-style device with top belay/guide mode and steel wear points?
|
After burning through my latest Petzl Reverso shockingly fast I'm thinking about an ATC with steel wear points for a bit more longevity, smoothness on lower/rappel and eco-friendliness. I know it's a minor change and won't save the world but I thought it was a little silly how consumable some ATCs are. Aluminum ATCs also perform differently as the grooves on the brake side that provide additional friction just melt away after many rappels etc. Steel doesn't really wear and will be the ~same every time for a long time. What's your favorite model with steel wear points and a top belay (guide mode)? The ones I can find are... Mammut Nordwand Alpine Belay: 
Edelrid Mega Jul: 
Edelrid Giga Jul: 
--- Any others? I hope the market trends this way! Thanks. |
|
From your list I'd go norwand, then giga, then mega. But I think your best option would be just a basic BD ATC Guide. I believe it uses a more dense aluminum and just seems to last way longer. Cons list for each, Norwand: Feels bulky on the harness and seems to dig into your butt hip in chimneys more that a "wire loop" style tuber. Mega Jul: most difficult to set up in Guide mode, awful rappelling experience. Giga jul: (I have only handled and never owned this device) once the rope is loaded you can't switch modes. From my understanding, if its in assisted brake mode, and set up as guide it has potential to not lock as a guide mode device should. |
|
I know what you mean about the Reverso wearing out fast. Faster than a BD ATC. I live in Germany and the place is awash with Edelrid devices. They are all sub par. Never the best in any category and terrible is some. Don't bother is my advice. I have a Nordwand and it's pretty good. Great for wear and tear. The plate replaces the keeper cable, which is trickier at times than a cable, but still manageable. I like the guide mode hole's orientation better than the Rerverso. EDIT: Just checked the Mammut Smart Alpine and CT Alpine Up. The both have stainless stell reinforcements to reduce wear. The Mammut is quite smooth for top belaying, but a nightmare to lower a follower. The CT is very heavy going for top belaying, but strangely good for lowering a follower. |
|
I miss the old steel reverso… |
|
OP, if you decide to revisit the aluminum belay devices, do yourself a HUGE favor and look into the DMM Pivot. After my Reverso wore out and my ATC guide was lent out and never came home, I snagged a Pivot and have never looked back. Easy to use, inexpensive, super easy to lower in guide mode and the slight 90 degree change in the guide bracket make a world of difference at your belay stations. The only gripe I have ever had is... if you climb with someone who still likes 10+mm ropes, you will have a little more exercise as you belay them from above. But hey man, talk about first world problems. : - ) |
Noel Z wrote: The Mammut Smart Alpine is discontinued as far as I can tell and there is no replacement that can do two ropes..? It looks like a very cool device. Thanks for the comment! |
Pete S wrote: Good news... the Mammut Nordwand Alpine Belay is pretty much the same as the old Reverso! Didn't realize that until I looked up what the original Reverso looked like   |
Shaniac wrote: I will never buy a device other than the Norwand’s orientation. If I remember correctly, all of the early guide-mode devices were oriented this way. I have no idea why some decided to switch. A crucial benefit to the Norwand’s orientation is it makes it harder to drop your device. When not in use, my device lives on a locker through the guide clip point. When I go to use it, I move it to my belay loop. Then I grab the rope and feed it through; then I move the locker from the guide clip to the tope. To reverse the procedure, I move the locker from the rope to the guide clip and then just pull on the rope. This way, whenever I’m working with both the device and rope at the same time, the device is attached to something. The Norwand’s guide-mode clip keeps the device oriented exactly how you use it for belaying and rappelling. |
|
I'd be all about ditching the cable keeper...I hate having clippy things on my harness that aren't rated |
J C wrote: I’m of the opposite opinion. The keeper loop will never be loaded in correct usage, and solid metal devices carried on carabiners make a huge racket Noel Z wrote: Jul2 is perfect in its execution and geometry. Granted, it has less functionality than requested by the thread topic. |
|
my ATC guide has lasted many years. Maybe I'm just not rapping enough. |
|
+1 for the Pivot. I don't have much to compare it to in the way of wear. I ran through a BD ATC (non-guide) but that was when I was using it for all belaying. Then I got a GriGri and then the Pivot, so the Pivot was only doing follower belay and rapping. Now, I like the GriGri for follower belay, so it only gets used on raps, but I've had it for 4+ years and it's still in great shape. As small a change as the Pivot is, it would make a huge difference in the ease of lowering a stranded follower. |
Will N wrote: I have, and use that exact Reverso on my 9.9mm rope. It is aluminum. I also looked at the vertical museum page for reversino and the other style Reverso with a toothed friction side. All are aluminum. Was there an earlier steel Reverso? If there is it will set me on a journey to find one. |
|
I have both the mammut nordwand and the giga jul. Love both. But the mammut as a regular atc. Runs smoother on beefier ropes and rappel more easily. Giga is my go to multipitch. But bites a lot on anything above 9.5mm and sometimes its a pia to rappel. When you have to kinda bounce to get some momentum. But when ropes 9.5 and below.. Its awesome. Usually i take the nordwand when leading, for the easinesss of belaying from above |
|
I'll put another vote out there for the Nordwand. It flows a lot better than the Revo or ATC from top belaying (still locks up just fine) and is easier to lower a follower as well. Also, I can confirm they are quite sturdy after (like an idiot) dropping mine from the top of a multipitch and it came out unscathed. I have minimal experience with the Juls, but didn't like the feel of the Mega and didn't like the switch aspect of the Giga. I could see the GIga being a nice lightweight assisted breaking option for multipitch though. |
|
Mammut Nordwand (actually i have an Mammut Bionoc Alpine Belay, which is the same thing, before they changed the name i think? Well the colour is different). Run smooth and people know how to use these style of devices. With The Mega Jul, this is what less people that know how to use it correctly (clipping the cable while belaying a second seems to be forgotten a lot and people often looked confused when they try to clip it like a ATC guide/reverso, because it's on the other side than most expect). The Giga jul with the different modes seems like a experiment with human factors... Nothing wrong in functional use (although rappeling in the assisted mode seems to be awfully difficult to do smoothly). |
|
PatMas covered it well in the 1st reply. The BD ATC-G is much more durable than the Reverso. I have a few Reversos but only for use with thin doubles/twins for ice and alpine routes where wear isn't a problem, but they are lighter and have narrower slots which is a benefit for those types of ropes/routes. For cragging, repeated lowering, rapping dirty ropes, etc the Reverso will wear out surprisingly fast and for those uses the ATC-G works great. I also have experience with the Gigajul which I bought specifically for the steel wear points and the Pivot. The Giga works fine but is a bit heavier; therefore it's fine for cragging. The Pivot is really nice but not as durable as the ATC-G for lots of raps/lowering. The original Reverso and Reversino (for small ropes) had a steel piece on the brake strand side, but the other side rubbed on aluminum plate and could create and extremely sharp edge relatively quickly. Jim Titt also tested it and found the braking force to the the worst. The Reverso 4 or 5 are definitely and upgrade, they just don't last very long so save them for use on ice or in the mountains! |
Marc H wrote: The original orientation of the first Reverso was protected by patent. It was then decided that the wording of the patent was open to interpretation and Petzl backed down. |
|
Thanks for the explanation, Jim. |
|
I have both the Giga Jul and the Mega Jul. I had the Giga Jul first and got the Mega Jul for weight savings in the alpine. Rappelling on the Mega Jul is so bad, though, that I won't be taking it out all that much. I probably wouldn't take it on any route where I expected to do more than two rappels. The Giga Jul is a really nice device. It's a good choice if you're going to be using skinny single or half/twin ropes. The only real downside for me is the weight compared to other tube-style devices. Assisted breaking works great. There's a small learning curve for assisted breaking mode and switching modes, but it's easy to learn and easy to use. Guide mode works just like a normal ATC Guide/Reverso. I wouldn't worry about PatMas' concern about guide mode. I haven't tested this, but I think that if you set it up in guide mode with the switch in assisted braking mode, the friction would be so heinous you'd immediately recognize your error before you told your climber they were on belay. I rappel in manual mode with an extension and autoblock, works great. You can rappel with assisted braking, but I never do this. The Mega Jul works well for lead belaying and top rope belaying. Belaying in guide mode is OK, but the device and rope need to be clipped like a Gigi, so it's a bit tricky to set up. You can find helpful videos about this on YouTube. Guide mode is easier to set up with a larger carabiner, which partly defeats the weight saving. Rappelling is problematic. You can either rappel in manual mode, in which case it's nearly impossible to slide the device up when you want to make a little adjustment (usually not necessary, but I didn't realize until I couldn't do it how helpful it is to be able to this), or you can rappel in assisted braking mode, in which case you have to use one hand to release the device to lower yourself. Kind of a "pick your poison" situation. It's also hard to get the device off the ropes when you're done rappelling, which adds to your transition time. I wouldn't get the Mega Jul looking for a do-it-all device, given the rappel problems. If you can live with the weight penalty of the Giga Jul, it's versatile and easy to use. |
|
+1 for the Gigajul. Like several others here, I have the megajul for lightweight alpine stuff (e.g. used it on Upper Exum Ridge a few years ago), but barely ever take it out anymore since the weight penalty for the Gigajul vs. the better handling and versatility didn’t seem like a bad trade off (this summer, I got on Ellingwood Ledges with a skinny single rope, and I hauled in the Gigajul cause I just like using it better). Megajul was good on very skinny twin ropes (8 and under), but Gigajul has been better on 8.9 and up single ropes. I also used the Mammut Alpine Smart extensively before getting the Gigajul. It is/was an excellent device, I thought, but the Gigajul does just as well and is more compact. Alas, I cannot compare to the Nordwand. Maybe I’ll have to try one of those soon… |
