New C4 rubber vs older C4 rubber

Nothing scientific to add, but I had several pairs of moccs, before and after the adidas transition. The "new" C4 didn't smear well and wasn't as durable.

rocknice2 wrote:

Check out UnParrallel RH rubber. Resoled my shoes with it and was extremely pleased.

^ This!!!

I recently bought a pair of UP Rock Guide approach shoes and am so impressed by their RH rubber I had my last resole done with UP RH. Am really looking forward to trying them out come spring.

How far climbing has come:. People used to send 5.10 routes in hiking boots to now complaining that their specially formulated rubber on highly engineered specialty climbing shoes is what's holding them back.  

My guess is that very few of the people saying adidas "ruined" 5.10 and stealth rubber would actually be able to perceive a difference if they really went in blind.  I have pre and post Adidas 5.10s and the c4 rubber performs virtually the same for my purposes.  A lot of folks here climbing 5.mid-high single digit (nothing wrong with that, that's where I climb) putting too much stock in forum and marketing hype.  

People love to hate the big corporations, but honestly Adidas makes some decent climbing shoes that both amateurs and pros really like.  I don't believe from my personal experience that C4 rubber changed significantly if at all. 

Dan Smee wrote:

My guess is that very few of the people saying adidas "ruined" 5.10 and stealth rubber would actually be able to perceive a difference if they really went in blind.  

Dan I think you are probably correct. I didnt really notice a performance difference in the sense that I couldn't climb as hard in the new Adidas 5.10 shoes, but for me the biggest thing was the longevity and quality of the shoe. The new ones didnt last as long - the rubber wore down and delaminated at an alarming rate compared to my pre Adidas shoes. 

But I am with you, most people will not be able to tell the difference in a blind test and odds are it wouldnt make a performance difference. but id like my shoes to last longer

Nick A wrote:

Dan I think you are probably correct. I didnt really notice a performance difference in the sense that I couldn't climb as hard in the new Adidas 5.10 shoes, but for me the biggest thing was the longevity and quality of the shoe. The new ones didnt last as long - the rubber wore down and delaminated at an alarming rate compared to my pre Adidas shoes. 

But I am with you, most people will not be able to tell the difference in a blind test and odds are it wouldnt make a performance difference. but id like my shoes to last longer

That's fair enough.  Especially with how expensive shoes are now, it makes sense you want to get the most out of a pair.  I can't comment too much on the longevity as I've only put one season on my new 5.10s so far.  I do really like the performance and comfort of the Grandstones I have though. 

Dan Smee wrote:

How far climbing has come:. People used to send 5.10 routes in hiking boots to now complaining that their specially formulated rubber on highly engineered specialty climbing shoes is what's holding them back.  

My guess is that very few of the people saying adidas "ruined" 5.10 and stealth rubber would actually be able to perceive a difference if they really went in blind.  I have pre and post Adidas 5.10s and the c4 rubber performs virtually the same for my purposes.  A lot of folks here climbing 5.mid-high single digit (nothing wrong with that, that's where I climb) putting too much stock in forum and marketing hype.  

People love to hate the big corporations, but honestly Adidas makes some decent climbing shoes that both amateurs and pros really like.  I don't believe from my personal experience that C4 rubber changed significantly if at all. 

I disagree with this. I also disagree with the premise that you have to climb hard grades to be able to tell if rubber is good or not, in fact I suggest the opposite is true, that people who climb hard grades can do it in crappy shoes almost as good as if they were in high end ones, where someone with less precise footwork, or a lower ability to pressure poor footholds needs that sticky rubber more.  

Doug Chism wrote:

I disagree with this. I also disagree with the premise that you have to climb hard grades to be able to tell if rubber is good or not, in fact I suggest the opposite is true, that people who climb hard grades can do it in crappy shoes almost as good as if they were in high end ones, where someone with less precise footwork, or a lower ability to pressure poor footholds needs that sticky rubber more.  

Nah

Doug Chism wrote:

It also appears as though Grip is softer, thus potentially higher performing than Grip2. 

I've tracked down these same metrics in old Vibram catalogues, but find it interesting that most people think Grip1 feels firmer than Grip2. Didn't have any data supporting this until I found that Greater Tahoe Gripworks measured these on their own resole sheets and found Grip1 to be closer to XS Edge. And... oooof looks like they just took down their resole tab as they're moving soon.

Let me see if I've saved it. But yeah, I like most options these days. Currently climbing on UP RH. Works well. Slightly stiffer than the old Butora NeoFuse.

Edit: Would like to try Science Friction and the Davos compounds sometime though.

rock climbing wrote:

Dan you are spoiling the fun. But you are right.

 
BTW I would buy Adidas shoes over SoIll anytime. Their rubber is really bad :-)

I could never figure out where that was coming from. Supposedly from Sang Lee and the "Dark Matter" family, but it just felt like silly putty in my hands.

James L wrote:

Edit: Would like to try Science Friction and the Davos compounds sometime though.

I am a mad rock fan boy.  I think the Shark is one of the best kept secrets in an all around shoe.  That said my experience with SF 3.0 rubber is that durability is an issue.  They seem to need resoled more often than my other brands. The rubber also wears weird: chunks of it chip off as opposed to the normal smooth wearing around the edges I experience with other rubber. 

That said you can get a pair of sharks and a resole with the rubber of your choice for less than the standard offerings from many other companies. 

Dan Smee wrote:

 now complaining that their specially formulated rubber on highly engineered specialty climbing shoes is what's holding them back.

…sure hope you’re not referring to the OP here. I simply asked if the compound changed, as I noticed a difference. The forum then took off on a life of its own. There is quite a difference between having a preference of rubber and then saying that my shoes are the reason I can’t climb harder (which I never said).

Kevin,

Did the new china rubber come soon after purchase in 2011/2012?

Alyssa Keene wrote:

…sure hope you’re not referring to the OP here. I simply asked if the compound changed, as I noticed a difference. The forum then took off on a life of its own. There is quite a difference between having a preference of rubber and then saying that my shoes are the reason I can’t climb harder (which I never said).

I'm making general comments on the modern obsession with gear and it's very subtle differences. My opinion, having owned quite a few new and old 5.10s, is that the difference in C4 rubber from the past vs. now is not significant enough that you or most folks would be able to form a blind preference.

Your OP doesn't actually mention anything technical you don't like about the "new" c4 rubber, just that "it didn't live up to the hype". This hype and marketing that we all put a lot of stock in is what I've been commenting on in this thread.

Dan Smee wrote:

This hype and marketing that we all put a lot of stock in is what I've been commenting on in this thread.

got it, thanks for your input!

Bummer Kevin deleted their posts. Really was the only person that has posted on this topic with any direct knowledge and apparently first foot experience. Perhaps his deleted posts were breaking an NDA with Adi 5.10.

Basically he is saying, that its the same formula, but a new manufacturer, so getting it right, didn't happen in his opinion when he was part of the team it in 2014/2015, but that maybe it is good now.

I would like to pick your brain Kevin if you be so kind to allow a phone call or DM/email session.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Bummer Kevin deleted their posts. Really was the only person that has posted on this topic with any direct knowledge and apparently first foot experience. Perhaps his deleted posts were breaking an NDA with Adi 5.10.

Basically he is saying, that its the same formula, but a new manufacturer, so getting it right, didn't happen in his opinion when he was part of the team it in 2014/2015, but that maybe it is good now.

I would like to pick your brain Kevin if you be so kind to allow a phone call or DM/email session.

Mostly I wanted to say that in my experiences the rubber used on UP shoes is as good as the original stealth rubber, and if someone was wanting to experience original C4 performance, they should use UP RH rubber. IMO it lives up to the “hype”for its intended uses. YMMV.

 Should hold back my comments on the current ADIDAS STEALTH C4 since I’ve yet to use it. 

Kevin newell wrote:

Mostly I wanted to say that in my experiences the rubber used on UP shoes is as good as the original stealth rubber, and if someone was wanting to experience original C4 performance, they should use UP RH rubber. IMO it lives up to the “hype”for its intended uses. YMMV.

 Should hold back my comments on the current ADIDAS STEALTH C4 since I’ve yet to use it. 

For Sure Kevin, and I agree.
I've resoled all my shoes with RH and it is excellent rubber. It very much is my favorite rubber thus far.

I Will say the C4 on the NIADS I've been using has been good too, but just doesn't quite feel like "it", although it feels like it delivers completely acceptable performance. I'm not falling any more with it, just feel like I need to give a little more mental energy into my foot placements. Likely its just me and the trust just isn't there.

Many Thanks for your input!

Nice!

essentially you are describing how I felt while testing those many years ago. Good rubber, even great in many respects, but just not what I felt was the same as the original.

Still eager to try some of their current offerings for if nothing else than to see if the rubber feels the same as what I tested. It’s hard to spend the money though since UP really has all my needs covered as far as shoe choices and satisfaction with fit function and performance. 

Adidas, according to the late Charles Cole, changed the formula to meet EU regulations and then later actually lost the formulas and thus proof of ownership.

UP is the closest to the original Stealth Rubber formula hands down.

FWIW I spoke to a VP of Adidas shortly after the takeover during a business meeting to understand their strategy.  When I bought up the topic of the rubber and any patents it was irrelevant to them…..I was told that Adidas use the best rubber supplier in the world and could easily get hold of more superior rubber if they wanted to….it wouldn’t surprise me if they have consolidated their contract with a very well known tire maker……