Climbing Party of 3 efficiency

Curious what methods others use for climbing party’s of 3. Last couple trips I’ve used Leader climbs>leader belays 1st follower>1st follower belays 2nd follower> leader swaps lead with 2nd follower. This was on 5.6/5.7 routes / pretty comfy grade for us.

Is it common for leader to belay with both followers climbing at the same time, more or less side by side, maybe slightly staggered? Or am I totally making that up. That seems like it would be faster with the caveat of certain ‘difficult sections’ where holds or route growth is limited.

If not, it would seem party’s of 3 are just inevitably slow. Am I missing something?

Wyatt Frakes wrote:

Curious what methods others use for climbing party’s of 3. Last couple trips I’ve used Leader climbs>leader belays 1st follower>1st follower belays 2nd follower> leader swaps lead with 2nd follower. This was on 5.6/5.7 routes / pretty comfy grade for us.

Is it common for leader to belay with both followers climbing at the same time, more or less side by side, maybe slightly staggered? Or am I totally making that up. That seems like it would be faster with the caveat of certain ‘difficult sections’ where holds or route growth is limited.

If not, it would seem party’s of 3 are just inevitably slow. Am I missing something?

I think you'd really benefit from taking a multipitch course sometime, there's a lot of efficiency tips to be gained, sometimes stuff you may have never thought of. If you ever make it to the Red River Gorge there are some offered here.  To answer your question,  parallel rope technique, where both followers climb simultaneously is super common,  typically the followers are spaced apart from one another,  15 feet or so isn't uncommon but distances can vary by circumstance.  Typically parallel technique is used when a fall from the follower isn't super likely,  given you don't get as attentive of belay with parallel technique and the need for the followers to climb at a certain pace relative to one another. 

Parallel technique is typically accomplished with a plaquette style device in 'guide mode' the ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso being common devices. Remember that lowering either climber in this mode becomes a little complicated, so be sure to be practiced on rescue techniques for this scenario.  

Pretty much. My conclusion has been that belaying both seconds simultaneously on a guide mode devide (yes, with some space between them) is one of the fastest methods. It does require some practice and is potentially pretty tiring as a belayer

If one of the climbers knows how to top rope solo, then you can fix and follow, which is something I've never tried but sounds really efficient. In that case the third climber is never being belayed so it's almost as fast as a party of two (except waiting for the third at the top of the last pitch)

Do what the other Greg said, but have leaders lead in blocks. Swapping every lead with a party of 3 is doable but can be cumbersome and it’s better to get into a flow. 

what greg (and greg) said. obviously bring two belay biners, as I learned the hard way (as a noob...or am I still?) that you can't very easily pull in slack for climber 2 if climber 3 is hangdogging in guide mode... duh! Also makes rapping more efficient as both climber 2 and 3 can rap on grigri, while you block both ropes with your atc and rap last. Best way to learn? Go do it on 5.6/7 terrain and figure out your mistakes where the consequences are much lower. I feel like you can watch all the videos and do all the ground-level practice you want... but there's no substitute for reps, plain and simple.

A more complicated but faster technique uses fix and follow, top rope solo techniques.

Leader and follower climb as normal, while fixing a second rope for the 3rd to climb. The person on the fixed line can usually cover the entire pitch while leader/follower are getting ready for the next pitch. Sometimes you can fix 2 pitches at once, though that gets kinda lonely for the 3rd.

A less safe way, but that can work on easy terrain, is 3 climbers on one rope, the middle climber tied in about 15 feet above the last. The climber in the rear should be experienced enough to not fall.

Greg, Greg and Christian nailed it. I figured this all out myself without watching any videos or hiring any guides. Those three posts tell you everything you need to know and why. I don't know if it's common, but it works very well.

Don’t have them climb at the same time if there is a rock fall hazard in between them.

Be more attentive with the brake hand if belaying up 2nd & 3rd in guide/reverso mode and the last piece is off to the side causing the rope to closer to horizontal rather than vertical. More likely to fail in this situation.

Keep ropes similar diameter or at least keep the brake hand on if they aren’t.

If using two single ropes, climb on one (rope a) and trail the other from a Locker on your belay loop[rope b(this will make it much easier to fix tangles at the belay)]Place gear and clip rope a like normal. When a directional is needed for traverse, overhangs etc.- add a biner or draw to the biner that rope a is running through and clip rope b to that new biner. Set up guide/reverso belay. The weaker/less experienced climber climbs second on rope b and cleans only their biner. The stronger follower climbs third, on rope a,  at a distance,  and removes gear. At the belay, decide where the second and 3rd climber need to stand in order to facilitate the next leader (which direction will the leader leave the belay?). Attach both climbers with a clove hitch or a pas, etc. to the anchor(master biner is nice)The climbers clip gear to the next leaders tether, then flake the ropes and fix any tangles. Don’t leave the anchor with tangles. 

If switching leaders, clip everyone in with a pas or a sling (rather than clove) and remember which ropes are on top. You should be able to have everyone re organize their tie in points quickly and may not have to re flake or pancake flip the rope.

Block leads are good.

Wyatt Frakes wrote:

Curious what methods others use for climbing party’s of 3. Last couple trips I’ve used Leader climbs>leader belays 1st follower>1st follower belays 2nd follower> leader swaps lead with 2nd follower. This was on 5.6/5.7 routes / pretty comfy grade for us.

What you just described is a painfully slow method as you have discovered. 

If I may recommend half/double ropes? Leader leads a pitch. Builds belay. Leader puts both followers on belay, calls out which color he wants to start climbing. after about 20 feet of that color rope is belayed, the leader notifies the 3rd to climb on. the 2nd and 3rd do their best to climb at the same speed. the leader can then belay both up at the same speed. Individual rope management isn't necessary. pile the rope spaghetti style. 

Swapping leaders isn't too painful. The to be new leader simply anchors in to power point. the original leader unties opposite color rope and hands it to new leader who then ties into it. Concerning any rope shenanigan's....Let the 3rd (and new 2nd) deal with the small chance of any knots (i spaghetti my rope piles and never get knots) while the new leader fights upwards. If not swapping leaders, then just 'flip zee shtack' and you're off again. This works great leading in blocks.   

Is it common for leader to belay with both followers climbing at the same time, more or less side by side, maybe slightly staggered? Or am I totally making that up. That seems like it would be faster with the caveat of certain ‘difficult sections’ where holds or route growth is limited.

If not, it would seem party’s of 3 are just inevitably slow. Am I missing something?

I've also used a single 7.7 x 60 meter on long easy moderates. two climbers tied at both ends of rope. the 2nd is tied in about 30 ft. up from the belayers (3rd) end of the rope. I recommend the 2nd be the stronger climber of the two on the belayers end of the rope if possible. Good communication using this method is imperative. and good amount of experience and understanding of the ins and outs of multi-pitch is highly recommended before using this method. I only use this method when going light with strong experienced partners. Lots of simul climbing on easy terrain well within all partners abilities.  

a party of 3 can be the cats azz on long multi pitch multi day climbs. it breaks up the physical and mental intensity into 3rds. leading in blocks helps too.

jcs

We climbed Chimney Rock - 3ish pitches of alpine climbing in the Selkirks two weeks ago as a party of 3. Tailed a rope on one route, another route just climbed on 1 rope.  Both systems worked ok, but the single rope was definitely faster and less hassle.  Leader climbed to belay and built an anchor.  Second tied an alpine butterfly and clipped in then started climbing.  Third tied into the end of the rope and climbed after.  Both moderate routes … 5.9 & 5.7, some loose rock but wasn’t an issue.  

I think the major options have been covered already. And I'd add that if you don't need a second rope for descent, climbing with 3 on a single rope (leader tied on one end, a follower tied on other end, and the second follower tied in with a cow-tail a few meters above the other) is a nice way to go.

nic houser wrote:

Did you mean to comment on the tahquitz climbing accident page?

Yes.