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Best belaying device for beginners, all weather conditions
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Hello, I'm looking for a belaying device to absail from a balcony, at approx. 7-8 meters high. I will use it to escape from a fire and it has to be useful and safe in all weather conditions. |
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A purpose-built collapsible fire escape ladder is a much better idea. |
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Nylon will probably melt in a fire, but if you still choose to go with the rope option for a balcony escape, just use an ATC with an autoblock hitch. |
Adam Fleming wrote: like a rope ladder? these are too unstable in my experience. especially with open area below balcony which is the case. so what exactly is the problem with abseiling just the traditional way? in my opinion this is the cheapest and most effective way. requires a bit of training and learning but im willing to invest. again a ladder is not stable since i have empty spaces below the balcony. so we can all scream something, things i need, but please give a little more explanation to why this is supposed to be working in my specific situation. |
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Edelrid Eddy + aramid (kevlar) rope |
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Have you ever used any belay device before? What will you attach the rope to when you abseil? This does not sound practical. As Adam suggested above, try this: |
Michael de Hollander wrote: Tie a brick or add a heavy metal pipe or chainlink to the last step. |
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Here is what you need - Link to product page - https://samospas.ru/catalog/sistemy-spaseniya-i-samospaseniya/individualnoe-spasatelnoe-ustrojstvo-monospas |
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Whatever you choose, if you have teenagers it’ll get more use than you may expect. |
Dirt King wrote: This is a good point. When I had to escape a burning house in college, the room was literally on fire by the time I got out the window. Hot air was blasting out of the heat vents. I think there's a real risk a nylon rope could have melted. And there was no time to get a harness on and rap set up. I wound up clambering out the window, dangling from power lines where they attached to the house, and dropping down. I understand that a metal ladder seems like it has drawbacks but not sure that climbing gear is better. What do fire codes in your area require? ETA: to elaborate on the advantages of a ladder over a rappel: you can practice with your ladder under safe conditions, on belay, if necessary. I know they feel really unstable at first, but with practice you'll get better at it. In the mountains, downclimbing is almost always faster than rappelling when you consider the time it takes to set up the system. All the more so if you need to get multiple people out at once - you can have more than one person on a ladder whereas multiple people rapping gets complicated quickly. Thinking back to my experience, it would have been great to have had a ladder, especially from the third story rooms. Would have saved my roommates and me from burns and broken bones. I don't think a rappel system would have been as useful because of the time to set up. I wasn't aware of the heat-resistant ropes but I don't think it changes my analysis much. I'm glad you're thinking about fire safety--it's something a lot of people don't consider until it's too late. |
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https://www.google.com/search?q=fire+escape+technora |
FrankPS wrote: And to add to that. Are you going to remember how to abseil when time is critical and you may be panicking? Will you have time to put on a harness? A ladder is easy. You put it over the window sill, throw the ladder and then climb down it. |
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If you need something fast, how the fuck are you going to put on a harness quick enough? Just use a ladder. Emergency ladders are fast to deploy and don't require any extra equipment. I'd hang on the window and fall the remaining distance over trying to set up a rappel in a burning building |
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Funny, how I posted this on another forum also (not a belaying device question, but absail or use rope ladder question) and they all say I should absail above using a ladder. It's not bad if people disagree, but I'm a little confused on what steps to take next. Truth is, I rather abseil than fall on my head while trying to descend. But I was thinking about the following gear (of course I have thought about the speed of fire and having to absail in a very short period of time): This gear is more expensive, but take the harness for example, it can be put on quickly: - Petzl Volt (with clicking mechanism) This can be adjusted to my body before there is a fire. - A climbing rope with an eye - Petzl MGO Open 110 to quickly attach the rope to the balcony (and a karabiner between the rope and the mgo open) This can be assembled on the rope before there is a fire, only attaching to the balcony needs to be done in emergency situation. And then a grigri or something (this was the question of this thread), which is reasonably easy to attach. This all would be useless without proper training, so I have bought climbing training from a local climbing center and told them my question. They are willing to help me with gear and to practise in my specific situation.  |
Michael de Hollander wrote: Nobody appears to be in disagreement except you. Buy a fire ladder. Don't overcomplicate it, you're more likely to drop yourself trying to rig a system you are unfamiliar with than just descending a ladder, which you'll never forget how to use. If you're set on buying yourself some cool stuff, go for it, but no need to overcomplicate a fire escape. Plus a rappel system will only ever work for one person, whereas in a fire a ladder could be used for multiple occupants in a house if needed. Seems like a clear choice |
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I dont want anyone to feel that a forum like this isnt welcoming or isnt helpful. but to be fair, this is a rock climbing forum. Not a tree trimming forum, or a fire escape forum, or a trapeze forum. Its all to say, if you go down some rabbit hole of fire rescue equipment, its not as if your local climbing course is going to be able to teach you how to use something obscure like your ideal setup (petzl EXO AP System for escaping fires, $499.99). |
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You disagree with me or I disagree with you or we disagree with each other? The point is I try to ask questions and the main question is why? Andy Forquer wrote: Yes, the main question was "Best belaying device for beginners, all weather conditions?". Which also applies to rock climbing I guess. |
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You dont know enough to know what you might be missing. There are so many ways this goes badly, but the most obvious to me is that you take a standard climbing course using an ATC for rapping on a rope between 9.5 and 10mm. But after all this internet research end up with something like that petzl fire retardant rope (7.5mm) and the GriGri+ with the anti panic feature you are after. This rope is too small for this belay device that only works down to a 8.9mm… so you would have a catastrophe on your first test run melting the skin off your hands. get a fire ladder, save a life! |
Andy Forquer wrote: Yep that's gonna happen... the rope will be in the fire... and actually the rope will be too small and will melt the skin of my hands.... |
Michael de Hollander wrote: You seem to think we are just being disagreeable, but we are trying to point out the very serious consequences of you not understanding the full implications and complexity of this system you want. Despite the difference in applications (THIS IS NOT A FIRE RECUE GROUP), we can tell you that climbing and rigging systems have very specific use cases, require specific training and knowledge to set up and use, and are dependent on your ability to remember how to operate them later. It would not be in good faith for us to give you recommendations on equipment that are outside of the general use of this group Example: You seem to interpret that the previous poster was saying the rope would be on fire. He was not. He was saying that rappel devices must be used with the correct type of rope, and if not, the rope runs through them too fast (or not at all) and you can't catch yourself, which would lead to your getting friction burns on your hands and possibly dropping yourself to the ground anyways |
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Hi Michael. I've been climbing for 20 years. I have to agree with the previous posters. It's cool that you're doing your research to figure out a fire escape system, but trying to rappel out of a burning building is not ideal for a lot of reasons. Whatever equipment you get and test, it will not be quick to set up and you will likely not feel comfortable using it unless you are practicing it regularly. It's also going to be a hell of a lot more expensive than a fire ladder. What are you going to attach the rope to inside your house? It needs to be sturdy enough to handle the force of your rappel, which is more than just your body weight. Attaching to something at the edge of your window like a railing is not ideal even if it's sturdy enough because you will have to lower yourself over that railing in order to put your weight on the system. When climbers are rappelling, we like to be able to stand on a ledge and weight the system to ensure it's set up correctly while we are BELOW the rappel anchor (attachment point). This prevents scary drops and potentially dangerous mistakes when setting up the rappel. If I could design the ideal solution for an attachment point, it would be something like a TRX mount that is permanently installed to a load-bearing beam in your ceiling or high on a wall. trxtraining.com/collections… How will you store your rope? Ropes are typically stored in some kind of coil or piled into a rope bag. Typically climbers rearrange the rope (called "flaking" the rope) before we throw the rope over the edge for a rappel, but you won't have time to do that. Flaking prevents the rope from getting tangled, because a tangled rope will stop or slow your rappel. In your situation, I'd proactively flake the rope Very Carefully into an open-mouth bag (like a big blue Ikea shopping bag). Since the rope is only for this purpose, I'd duct tape the bottom end of the rope to the bag before you start flaking the rope into the bag, to prevent it from causing tangles. When you finish flaking the rope into the bag, the other eye end of the rope will be on top of the bag. Keep it hooked to a locking carabiner (make sure it's a locking carabiner) and I'd pre-rig the Gri-Gri an appropriate distance down the strand. I'd keep the top end carabiner clipped to one of the bag handles for extra assurance that it stays flaked the way you want it. In an emergency, you would unclip the locking carabiner from the bag handle, attach the locking carabiner to your permanent anchor point inside the house, pull out enough rope from the bag to attach your GriGri to your harness, and then just throw whole bag with the rest of the rope out the window so that it (hopefully) unflakes itself neatly on the way down. But you'd want to practice this to troubleshoot any issues you might have like your rope getting caught up in a tree or something. Even though the rope will not be able to get a knot in it if you flake it carefully and keep the top end from crossing back under the rest of the rope, the loops of the flaked rope can still get caught up on each other as the rope uncoils from the bag. Buy the shortest rope you can that will reach the ground from your attachment point. The longer the rope, the more chance of tangles. Cut down the rope if you need to and melt the cut end. Keep your rope out of direct sunlight, away from sources of heat, away from cleaning agents or other chemicals (don't store it in a closet with cleaning supplies) and away from animals (pets that could pee on it, rodents that could gnaw on it, etc.) |
