Offwidth Armor + Offwidth Volume

Two Q's for the OW masochists out there:

Q1: What are the various strategies and items you use to protect your knees, elbows, and shoulder blades when you go into an offwidth session? I tape up the back of my elbows sometimes and am pretty familiar with the diferent tape glove tips and tricks.

• Please share links to your favorite pieces of armor and if you have had bad experiences with others that would be good to know too to save time and $.
• When it's too hot for a flannel / rashguard / taping up hotspots what do you do?
• I've tried climbing in jeans for large crystal granite offwidths but It's terrible for range of motion and rain / moisture logistics. I have destroyed fancy pants but also have some nice pants that take the OW beating very well with no noticeable damage, namely Mammut Couermayeur and other similar types from Mammut, whereas only a few models of Arcteryx will not rip quickly. If you have a favorite OW climbing pant or shirt please let me know.

Q2: What type of volume do OW climbers really carry out in a day or multiday trip? A 5.11-12 sport or trad climber can put down as many lines as they physically and mentally can handle from an endurance+efficiecny standpoint (10-50+ depending on crag, rock type, and pitch length) but it would be the exception that the rock qualities and phsyical trauma to their bodies would shut them down. On the other end of the spectrum it would seem quite extraordinary to put in 10+ pitches of even short 5.10 - 5.12 offwidht in a day without being completely brutalized and needing a lot of time off.

• If you have progressed through the point of sessioning 5.10-5.12 offwidth to sending multiple lines of these type in day or trip please detail what that progress looked like and what you could expect to really do in a one day session or say a 3-5 day trip. For me, it seems booking true Rest Days every third day is a necessity in this style of climbing but I haven't figured out the balance yet.
• Are there really people who can knock out quantities of five to ten (or more) 5.10-5.12 offwidths in a day for multiple days (3-5 days)? 
• Is the ratio of OW volume starkly different in a Creek : VOO comparison in regards to bruising / scrapes / gobies, ignoring aspects of line concentration and approach differences?

Thanks for any insight into this matter of OW pacing and progression. I am not a dedicated OW climber but enjoy all types of lines and am trying to find a balance of visiting fun OW's on trips and still being phyiscally capable of climbing at a reasonable level on other days rather than being a bloody oozing zombie hauling toddler sized SLCD's around quixotically. : )

Pic of OW ooze 

I don't get how people can like offwidth. So grovely and grungy. No finesse or style. You are on TR the whole time pushing your cam ahead of you. Annoying scrapes. Takes 1000 calories of energy to move a single meter. I'm convinced people only like it because they suck at other forms of climbing. 

I recently led The Big Baby in Indian Creek (I have also done Big Guy). There is no way an average climber could do 10+ offwidths in a day for multiple days. It would require your technique being so dialed that you weren't expending massive amounts of energy. After leading Big Baby I needed to rest for a couple hours before I could hop on other things. 

grug g wrote:

I don't get how people can like offwidth. So grovely and grungy. No finesse or style. You are on TR the whole time pushing your cam ahead of you. Annoying scrapes. Takes 1000 calories of energy to move a single meter. I'm convinced people only like it because they suck at other forms of climbing. 

I recently led The Big Baby in Indian Creek (I have also done Big Guy). There is no way an average climber could do 10+ offwidths in a day for multiple days. It would require your technique being so dialed that you weren't expending massive amounts of energy. After leading Big Baby I needed to rest for a couple hours before I could hop on other things. 

I agree with the perpetual TR in many instances but I just got off Fantasia on Poland hill and that is definitely a line where you can’t so much bump a 2-cam TR forever. It was really exciting and to protect it well, you’d have to haul way too much gear which makes it even harder or spicier. I know an older guy who led it when the largest gear they had was BD3-4 and it was basically protectable in 2 spots with only one being meaningful in a fist jam near the top. The old OW guys were pretty gnarly to saddle up without the tech we have.

i would say there is definitely finesse and style involved a lot of the time.  for example, a lot of the time you REALLY don't have to try to stay in there SO HARD.  with a bit of calmness and creativity you can dial it back a bit.  that being said i would agree it is usually more of a full body workout and more overall tiresome.

the thing i can't get over is all of the gals climbing wide shit in tank tops.  that blows my mind.  my shoulder blades have scar tissue that insta-bleed, kinda like nate diaz's face.

slim wrote:

the thing i can't get over is all of the gals climbing wide shit in tank tops.  that blows my mind.  my shoulder blades have scar tissue that insta-bleed, kinda like nate diaz's face.

Great example, but then Thea is a beast.

O/W at the Gunks

grug g wrote:

I don't get how people can like offwidth. So grovely and grungy. No finesse or style. You are on TR the whole time pushing your cam ahead of you. Annoying scrapes. Takes 1000 calories of energy to move a single meter. I'm convinced people only like it because they suck at other forms of climbing. 

I recently led The Big Baby in Indian Creek (I have also done Big Guy). There is no way an average climber could do 10+ offwidths in a day for multiple days. It would require your technique being so dialed that you weren't expending massive amounts of energy. After leading Big Baby I needed to rest for a couple hours before I could hop on other things. 

It's supposed to be tiring, it isn't foreplay, it's the whole experience. 

I threw up a bit after big baby.

Connor Dobson wrote:

It's supposed to be tiring, it isn't foreplay, it's the whole experience. 

Thats true - its an experience you will never forget. 

I use Mizuno volleyball knee pads and they work great! I sometimes feel like it’s cheating but I put in a lot of time at the Voo, and it makes a huge difference in being able to keep climbing for the whole trip if you don’t mangle your knees the first day. The Mizunos are nice and soft. My partner had Mueller knee pads made out of neoprene and didn’t like them cause they pinched. 

I haven’t used elbow pads. I just where a long sleeve shirt. I have a few plain cotton Champion long sleeves that hold up pretty well. If it’s hot I’ll pack it and just put it on specifically for offwidth.

I’ve been pretty impressed with the Creag pants! Idk if they have any left, but mine didn’t rip in the Voo and I was shocked. I’ve been disappointed with Black Diamond’s Notion pants. They are so hot and can’t hold up to offwidth. But I started patching them, and that at least helps them last a little longer. I’ve really liked my Prana pants but sadly they didn’t really hold up either.

For your second question, 5.10 Voo offwidths do slap but I’m by no means climbing offwidth at 5.11 and 5.12, so just stating that now. I am one of those weirdos who loves the wide though and as my technique has improved, I’m able to climb a lot more offwidths during a trip. I used to get back to camp feeling totally wrecked, bruised, and needing to eat 1000s of calories. Getting up and climbing the next day was rough. But I noticed this last season that I’m less bruised, less starving, and not AS wrecked because I’ve learned some technique. Before I would just sufferfest my way through it, not knowing what jam or which body part to use and expending tons of unnecessary energy. It’s still a full body workout though and I’m sure getting into the higher grades will be like starting all over again!

Voo vs Creek - I’ve gotten more gobies and a few bloody gashes at the Creek and more full body bruising and scrapes/scratches at the Voo. 

grug g wrote:

I don't get how people can like offwidth. So grovely and grungy. No finesse or style. You are on TR the whole time pushing your cam ahead of you. Annoying scrapes. Takes 1000 calories of energy to move a single meter. I'm convinced people only like it because they suck at other forms of climbing. 

I recently led The Big Baby in Indian Creek (I have also done Big Guy). There is no way an average climber could do 10+ offwidths in a day for multiple days. It would require your technique being so dialed that you weren't expending massive amounts of energy. After leading Big Baby I needed to rest for a couple hours before I could hop on other things. 

I’m still not great at it. So I’m not the best judge, but I like it a lot because it’s pretty similar to my highschool wrestling days for whatever reason. I enjoy the struggle bus. 

grug g wrote:

I don't get how people can like offwidth. So grovely and grungy. No finesse or style. You are on TR the whole time pushing your cam ahead of you. Annoying scrapes. Takes 1000 calories of energy to move a single meter. I'm convinced people only like it because they suck at other forms of climbing. 

OW is definitely my weakest link in climbing styles, and I still enjoy it!  I think the fact that I suck at it makes me enjoy it more. It’s such a challenge and I have so much to learn. And because of my small body (I can hand jam a green crack), some climbs that aren’t OW to dudes are OW to me. And there is the whole I want to be proficient at all styles of climbing because you can’t always pick and choose what is required of you when you are climbing a pretty line.  

I wear long sleeve shirt and pants and have found a soft non-pinching knee pads. But they slide so I don’t think I would recommend them. I am thinking about how to keep them in place. Maybe wear them inside my pants and tape it to my skin?  

I borrow my partner's POC mountain biking shirt and it's awesome! I don't mtb so I don't understand which style to look for but it's the meshy kind meant for taking spills. It's super abrasion resistant and lightweight/ stays cool.

I was a creek/voo offwidth type of guy back in my dark days.

There are a few things about your post that seem wrong. First, you don’t use anything with a brand and certainly nothing we can post links to. Find roomy pants on sale, the thrift store works. Do some toe touches and high knees in the changing room. Done. Replace when the tape over the holes becomes too much.

Get knee high socks and tuck those pants into them. Saves on tape.

A long sleeve T shirt is adequate.

Grow your skin back.

As for volume, this goes back to the whole watts or joules rating for OW rather than a simple uninformative YDS number. You’ll never climb as many, live with it.

Something that we all did was climb everything. Bellyful on the same day as Critics Choice. Swedin Ringle, Digital Readout, and Big Baby. You get the idea.

 A little harder to do at Ved but every hard climber there has sent Squat and 4th of July. Life without parole and Soak em in Cider. Balance.

You’ll be doing yourself and the art a disservice to seek out the wide to the exclusion of other quality routes.

carrie n wrote:

I use Mizuno volleyball knee pads and they work great! I sometimes feel like it’s cheating but I put in a lot of time at the Voo, and it makes a huge difference in being able to keep climbing for the whole trip if you don’t mangle your knees the first day. The Mizunos are nice and soft. My partner had Mueller knee pads made out of neoprene and didn’t like them cause they pinched. 

I haven’t used elbow pads. I just where a long sleeve shirt. I have a few plain cotton Champion long sleeves that hold up pretty well. If it’s hot I’ll pack it and just put it on specifically for offwidth.

I’ve been pretty impressed with the Creag pants! Idk if they have any left, but mine didn’t rip in the Voo and I was shocked. I’ve been disappointed with Black Diamond’s Notion pants. They are so hot and can’t hold up to offwidth. But I started patching them, and that at least helps them last a little longer. I’ve really liked my Prana pants but sadly they didn’t really hold up either.

For your second question, 5.10 Voo offwidths do slap but I’m by no means climbing offwidth at 5.11 and 5.12, so just stating that now. I am one of those weirdos who loves the wide though and as my technique has improved, I’m able to climb a lot more offwidths during a trip. I used to get back to camp feeling totally wrecked, bruised, and needing to eat 1000s of calories. Getting up and climbing the next day was rough. But I noticed this last season that I’m less bruised, less starving, and not AS wrecked because I’ve learned some technique. Before I would just sufferfest my way through it, not knowing what jam or which body part to use and expending tons of unnecessary energy. It’s still a full body workout though and I’m sure getting into the higher grades will be like starting all over again!

Voo vs Creek - I’ve gotten more gobies and a few bloody gashes at the Creek and more full body bruising and scrapes/scratches at the Voo. 

thanks for the great response.

I've tried kneepads in the past but the pinching was more annoying to focus and performance than the bruising afterward. I'll try out one of these various Mizuno options!

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/vc/be980362-4fd8-4a3d-8d8d-a1424decad7d.__CR0,0,970,300_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg

I noticed I lost quite a bit of weight from just a few days of offwidthing as well as normal crack and face climbing on this last trip so that's also good incentive to visit the Wide. It really is a total body workout. I have 4 more days to heal up before I'm back off work and plan to work on a project similar to Wormdive but about 2x taller, a touch wider and therefore forgiving. Instead of roof and exit slight overhang this one has the start roof and then multiple ripples. Very damaging to my body at my technique level!

Can't wait to try the Mizunos out on it next week! It appears the clearance of Creag pants are way gone. 

I got some neoprene knee pads by they're only really useful for chimneys as they bunch up in knee jams and make my already size 6 knee even bigger. 

So far I haven't found anything better than cheap jeans from goodwill with a couple % elastic so they stretch and just patch them as they rip. Tight pants are better than baggy for OW IMO since it sucks when your leg slides inside the pants and feels like you're slipping out of the crack. 

For big baby I had to tape up my hands so much (and then still bled a bunch so hung to add more tape) I might consider wearing my old, thin-ish leather fingerless belay gloves if I tried it again. For sustained #4 and up I don't see why not wear actual gloves, unless they're tight and pump you out more? 

I do like using these thin mcdavid cooling arm sleeves (they go up to mid bicep) to protect my forearms for crack climbing in general, and I have some slightly thicker fabric elbow compression sleeves that I'll stack on top for lots of arm bars & chicken wings. There are prob similar things from other brands, and I think the pearl izumi cycling sleeves have a little sticky silicone strip on the inside to keep them up on your upper arm. 

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

I was a creek/voo offwidth type of guy back in my dark days.

There are a few things about your post that seem wrong. First, you don’t use anything with a brand and certainly nothing we can post links to. Find roomy pants on sale, the thrift store works. Do some toe touches and high knees in the changing room. Done. Replace when the tape over the holes becomes too much.

Get knee high socks and tuck those pants into them. Saves on tape.

A long sleeve T shirt is adequate.

Grow your skin back.

As for volume, this goes back to the whole watts or joules rating for OW rather than a simple uninformative YDS number. You’ll never climb as many, live with it.

Something that we all did was climb everything. Bellyful on the same day as Critics Choice. Swedin Ringle, Digital Readout, and Big Baby. You get the idea.

 A little harder to do at Ved but every hard climber there has sent Squat and 4th of July. Life without parole and Soak em in Cider. Balance.

You’ll be doing yourself and the art a disservice to seek out the wide to the exclusion of other quality routes.

Interesting history. At a certain point you are putting on so much "armor" that it tips the scale from a skill based send into equipment based send ........

How long are voo cracks? As long as IC?

grug g wrote:

Interesting history. At a certain point you are putting on so much "armor" that it tips the scale from a skill based send into equipment based send ........

How long are voo cracks? As long as IC?

In general, 30 to 50 feet. Very intense with stopper moves. No part of the Big Baby is actually that hard but the whole thing is. That’s no different than most IC thin cracks being quite easy for 10 feet, but at 150, totally different story.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

In general, 30 to 50 feet. Very intense with stopper moves. No part of the Big Baby is actually that hard but the whole thing is. That’s no different than most IC thin cracks being quite easy for 10 feet, but at 150, totally different story.

I think the longest are on the coke bottle, 110' maybe?

I had a 35m rope that was perfect for a lot of Vedauwoo. There are certain crags where you could even rappel with a rope that short. It was great.

Petsfed 00 wrote:

I think the longest are on the coke bottle, 110' maybe?

I had a 35m rope that was perfect for a lot of Vedauwoo. There are certain crags where you could even rappel with a rope that short. It was great.

idk man, we climbed A Thing of Beauty the other day, it's longer than 35 meters from ground to top.

Q1: What are the various strategies and items you use to protect your knees, elbows, and shoulder blades when you go into an offwidth session?

My OW kit looks a lot like my wife's post above. Long sleeve champion shirt that I wear over my sun shirt, high top shoes + socks, minzuno cloth knee pads from Walmart (sometimes just one if I know which side is going in). In terms of pants, I am really impressed by the Prana Stretch Zion. I ran the same pair through a ton of OW this Voo season without any issues with kneepads underneath. I find that knee pads on top of the pants is too slippy. 

Q2: What type of volume do OW climbers really carry out in a day or multiday trip?

Hmmm, not sure how many 5.10 OW you have climbed at the Voo but they can be pretty demanding. Some are easier than others. It really depends on your fitness and technique. I can usually climb between 1-3 5.10 voo OW in a day but I usually wouldn't put myself through that. A few weeks ago we started off with Putter (easy for 5.10) and the moved down to Penetration (hard for 5.9) and then cruised over to Raised on Robbery (tricky flaring chimney OW to hand crack) 5.10 and then over to Nautilus to cool down on the slots (5.7). This kind of day is pretty typical for us. start on the harder stuff and then cool down on easier fun OW to round out the day. I am usually aiming for 10 pitches in day, but not all 5.10 and harder if I am the voo.

There is a huge difference between desert sandstone and Voo granite. I find that the voo OW can often have one significant crux, a realllllll stopper section of the crack. That being said the voo often has little edges, crystals and lots of friction. Desert sandstone OW is really all about technique. You aren't really going to find a hand jam in the back of the crack by surprise. It's usually all about knowing the slight differences of what techniques to use when you are traveling through the sizes. Moving from 3-4, then 4-4.5, then 4.5 to tight 5, then regular 5 to big 5 and so on. Dialing those techniques when switching between sizes really makes a difference in desert OW. If you don't have this, it will significantly limit the amount of OW you can climb in a given day.

The most important thing about OW is that you are having fun. Focus on the lines that make you wonder with awe. Focus on the ones that you will be stoked on regardless of the grade. OW can be humbling, sometimes you think you have a size dialed and you get slapped around. These are learning moments. Good luck.

grug g wrote:

I don't get how people can like offwidth. 

People should climb what they are psyched on. It is like getting bent out of shape that someone likes IPAs and you like lagers. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

People should climb what they are psyched on. It is like getting bent out of shape that someone likes IPAs and you like lagers. 

Oh great, look who showed up and contributed nothing.