Best rope side carabiner for rope longevity

Interesting discussion in this thread on sport climbing ropes needing retirement too early. One of the primary suggestions was for beefier and round carabiners for the rope side carabiner of their quickdraws.

There was one recommendation for Beal "Be Free" quickdraws. 

Carabiner diameter is an attribute I had never considered before in buying or using draws. I searched the forum and didn't turn up much. There's this thread on locking carabiners though, and this incredibly thorough review of lockers to find an Attaché replacement.

Any other recommendations for the best carabiners for rope longevity? Gyms seem to use a lot of Petzl Djinn or BD Livewire (without the keylock gate; I don't know what it's called, but I don't think they're made any more regardless), so I suspect those would be good since they get a lot of mileage, and gyms want their ropes to last as long as possible.

I would assume that Bulletproof draws would improve rope longevity.

https://www.rei.com/product/114548/edelrid-bulletproof-quickdraw-set

I always use one for my first draw, but Spirits for the rest because they handle much nicer. I aways use bulletproofs on the anchor if no in-situ lower offs.

I don't think DMM makes them anymore, but their Thor wiregate is/was perfect for this. Large rope bearing radius, easy to handle, and can take a beating. 

A lot of manufactures claim about large diameter on the carabiners. Even the Petzl Djin is marketed as "DJINN carabiners have a wide rope contact zone to limit rope drag and provide greater durability for both carabiner and rope" so it's not that special. 

Steel (edeldrid bulletproof) or moving bearing (DMM revolver) are the most focused on durability. Although with the added price, doesn't mean your saving money in the end. 

Rexford Nesakwatch wrote:

I would assume that Bulletproof draws would improve rope longevity.

https://www.rei.com/product/114548/edelrid-bulletproof-quickdraw-set

I always use one for my first draw, but Spirits for the rest because they handle much nicer. I aways use bulletproofs on the anchor if no in-situ lower offs.

Yeah I definitely use those for first draw and lowering off. Sometimes at cruxes too if I'm working something and falling a lot. (I also use them at anchors regardless of what is hanging there to save wear on the lowering biners if my party is going up it more than once. I was always taught that was best practice, to make the hardware last as long as possible.)

How much life do you get out of the Spirits? I've heard they are light and handle well but don't last long.

+1 on edelrid bullet proof.  Love those biners especially for a first clip which takes the most drag. I also use the lockers for TR. 

K Dub wrote:

How much life do you get out of the Spirits? I've heard they are light and handle well but don't last long.

I can't really give an objective answer in something like days or pitches, but Spirits seem a little softer and wear a little bit faster than other draws I have used.

Reverso's wear so fast that I have stopped using them, so maybe that French aluminum is just softer (grin) the 

Toproping wears the rope down more than most things. For TR I use large diameter steel lockers and usually have a dedicated 11mil rope for it as well.  Lots of choices in the biner range, but I like the big steel DMM's the most.  Grigri's are great for the belayers as well. 

Edelrid Bulletproof or other heavier all steel options.

Don't use DMM Revolver or other carabiner with a pulley built in if your looking to fall on them.

Rex, consider the Mammut Nordwand Alpine belay device. Steel wear points.

Billcoe wrote:

Toproping wears the rope down more than most things. For TR I use large diameter steel lockers and usually have a dedicated 11mil rope for it as well.  Lots of choices in the biner range, but I like the big steel DMM's the most.  Grigri's are great for the belayers as well. 

I never TR on my ropes. Definitely the worst for it.

In the context of sport/cragging where you're not walking off, how is TR'ing any worse for your rope than leading then lowering or rapping? 

Also, while I love the bulletproof 'biners for reducing the amount of aluminum oxide that gets on the rope, they don't have an especially large rope-bearing surface. Is the difference in coefficient of friction between aluminum/nylon and stainless steel/nylon enough to make a difference in rope wear? I suppose they will maintain their smoothness for a long time though, and falling/lowering off of sharp/grooved 'biners is one of the worst things you can do to your rope. 

Aluminum oxide is an actual abrasive. 9 on the Mohs hardness scale. Aluminum metal when exposed to air immediately forms aluminum oxide on the surface. This property is not the best for rope bearing surfaces... Yes, the aluminum oxide is a protective finish, but its also very abrasive.

We use aluminum because it is very light and relatively cheap to form and process, compared to say titanium.

Dr Logic wrote:

Rope isn't fixed on a top rope anchor and most people alternate sides they climb so the whole rope gets worked. Maybe your thinking TR soloing?

I can't say I've seen many people who swap sides top roping. Maybe they should, but not sure that many people who are frequently TRing are aware of that

i would say the amount of damage the biners do to the rope is tiny compared to the amount of damage that occurs from the rope running over rock, getting stepped on, getting dragged through the dirt, etc.

that being said, i bought a couple edelrid bulletproofs for my anchor draws and they are pretty sweet.  i have always had a set of dedicated anchor draws, primarily so i only really need to keep track of the grooving on them and not everything else.  i got tired of swapping biners out every few months and decided to give the bulletproofs a try.  i have had them for a few months now and they still look really good.  not sure if it is helping my rope much, but...?

slim wrote:

i would say the amount of damage the biners do to the rope is tiny compared to the amount of damage that occurs from the rope running over rock, getting stepped on, getting dragged through the dirt, etc.

that being said, i bought a couple edelrid bulletproofs for my anchor draws and they are pretty sweet.  i have always had a set of dedicated anchor draws, primarily so i only really need to keep track of the grooving on them and not everything else.  i got tired of swapping biners out every few months and decided to give the bulletproofs a try.  i have had them for a few months now and they still look really good.  not sure if it is helping my rope much, but...?

That's the same reason I got bulletproofs too, with the extra benefit being cleaner ropes. I think you're right too about how most ropes wear out, but the OP was specifically referring to sport routes and frequent whipping wearing out ropes. In my experience, ropes used in that setting don't get too much abrasion from rock, dragged through the dirt, etc. In this case, ropes tend to wear out within a few meters of the end... right where they get loaded on the top draw with lots of falls, which is why people trim their ropes down. DRS seems to think that the main cause of rope wear here is due to the aluminum vs steel, but I'd wager it's the radius of the carabiner catching the falls that's the main culprit. 

Brandon R wrote:

That's the same reason I got bulletproofs too, with the extra benefit being cleaner ropes. I think you're right too about how most ropes wear out, but the OP was specifically referring to sport routes and frequent whipping wearing out ropes. In my experience, ropes used in that setting don't get too much abrasion from rock, dragged through the dirt, etc. In this case, ropes tend to wear out within a few meters of the end... right where they get loaded on the top draw with lots of falls, which is why people trim their ropes down. DRS seems to think that the main cause of rope wear here is due to the aluminum vs steel, but I'd wager it's the radius of the carabiner catching the falls that's the main culprit. 

Ditto to that. I don't think the rope wear is from abrasion as much as damage from fall force over the radius of the carabiner. Certainly changes with the area that you're in though, sandy or silty belay areas vs nice grass or wood chip developed areas dramatically affect how long your ropes last unless you are OCD about keeping them off the ground

Brandon R wrote:

That's the same reason I got bulletproofs too, with the extra benefit being cleaner ropes. I think you're right too about how most ropes wear out, but the OP was specifically referring to sport routes and frequent whipping wearing out ropes. In my experience, ropes used in that setting don't get too much abrasion from rock, dragged through the dirt, etc. In this case, ropes tend to wear out within a few meters of the end... right where they get loaded on the top draw with lots of falls, which is why people trim their ropes down. DRS seems to think that the main cause of rope wear here is due to the aluminum vs steel, but I'd wager it's the radius of the carabiner catching the falls that's the main culprit. 

Agree. The rope beyond the first 10-15 feet is pristine. It's just where the rope falls on the carabiner that it wears out for me (and OP in the original thread).

Do you use Bulletproofs on all draws or just the first (+/- crux draw) and anchors? They are great but a little heavy.

K Dub wrote:

Agree. The rope beyond the first 10-15 feet is pristine. It's just where the rope falls on the carabiner that it wears out for me (and OP in the original thread).

Do you use Bulletproofs on all draws or just the first (+/- crux draw) and anchors? They are great but a little heavy.

Just the anchors for me. I could see using them for the first draw. Maybe one of those Beal draws for cruxes you know you'll be falling on a lot. 

I think that the idea that TR is worst for a rope than leading is misguided, or at least fails to consider climbing styles.

If you're leading and regularly taking falls (projecting for instance, or just onsighting hard stuff), then this is much more likely to lead to quick wear of the rope than most TR. There's a reason that most of the time the rope needs to be cut due to a soft spot it happens within the last few meters from either rope's end. That's because most leading fall will catch the biner at that point, loading it with however many kNs that fall happens to generate. Things that will contribute to speeding that up further:

• Falling low on the route
• Poor belay (static)
• Heavier climber
• Possibly smaller carabiner diameters, or heavily worn carabiner

TR, on the other end, tends to rub against the rock a lot, and thus wear out the sheath, but rarely all the same spot. Forces generated on a TR are also pretty low unless you're doing it wrong. It certainly wears out the rope more than a send that only sees a lower off at the end. But much less so than a project rope would, or just a rope that sees lots of falls.