Hiring Guides: What types of objectives are ok?

I'm finding there are times where I am traveling with my non-climber partners, away from my regular climbing partner - where I have thought - it would be great to do a day of climbing, top-out on a desert tower, etc.  Recently I've thought it might be great to just hire a guide to help squeeze in one of these climbs.

I was curious, for intermediate climbers, what is it like climbing with a guide?  What's the etiquette?  i.e. Can you lead with guides?  Can you swing leads and have them take pitches that are above your ability? How ambitious is too ambitious in terms of long approaches, etc.

Thanks for my noob questions.

I’d reach out to a service in the area you’re looking to go, they can tell you what’s up over the phone. It all depends what you’re hiring them for, if it’s for a clinic sort of thing it’s usually more constrained. However, many services have a day rate that you can hire a guide to climb with and coordinate objectives and style of how you’d like to climb it.

I want to give the guide perspective. Please understand I'm not trying to put down recreational climbers or anyone who hires guides. I love giving people a full value experience, but sometimes our risk tolerances don't align and we have to compromise. 

Some companies have insurance policies which prohibit guests leading entirely. That's the first hurdle you'll have to face. 

Letting guests lead is something I've really struggled with. For one, you're putting the guest at higher risk in a world where you typically try to minimize the risk guests are exposed to. Rescue is much harder when the victim is above you. Second, the guide is at higher risk. If the guest doesn't build an appropriate anchor or doesn't belay properly, the guide is essentially soloing. It can be near impossible to verify if the system is secure when you're a pitch below the leader. These factors are compounded the more remote you are and the more challenging self-rescue becomes. 

I've only let repeat guests lead on multipitch. I suppose I would let a guest referred to me by a trusted friend lead as well. I've had guests who "totally know their stuff" be absolutely dangerous junk shows. Sorry, but I'm not going to put my job and life on the line based on your word. 

One option you have is to do a half day with a guide before your big objective so y'all can make sure you're good to go. Then yes, you might be able to lead some pitches and let the guide rope gun for you. Your storied public ticklist on MP would certainly help put me at ease as well. Detailed notes about the rack, route, and other important info shows a level of understanding needed to be a competent leader. 

I used a guide to climb N Ridge Lone Pine peak with a buddy.  I prefer teams of 2 versus 3, but other than that it was a great experience.  We covered a lot of terrain and we didn't have to do any route finding.  There was a lot of class IV and low V where we traveled roped together but moving fast.  We only pitched out a few pitches.  I would not expect a guide to let you lead, but maybe some will do that.

Adam Fleming wrote:

Letting guests lead is something I've really struggled with. For one, you're putting the guest at higher risk in a world where you typically try to minimize the risk guests are exposed to. Rescue is much harder when the victim is above you. Second, the guide is at higher risk. If the guest doesn't build an appropriate anchor or doesn't belay properly, the guide is essentially soloing. It can be near impossible to verify if the system is secure when you're a pitch below the leader. These factors are compounded the more remote you are and the more challenging self-rescue becomes.  

super helpful (in addition to the other climbers/guides).  Sounds like typical trad guiding then is to have the guest follow- which makes a ton of sense. Thanks!!

Happy to help, Andy! Your situation leads to (no pun intended) some of my favorite days working. A traveling climber who just want's a super knowledgeable, reliable, and safe partner tends to make for a really fun and laid-back guest. 

Two notable guests I had in that situation were both on Ancient Art. One wanted to tag the summit and be back by brunch (which was probably the fastest I've done it with a guest). We rolled up to the ranch right when his wife and kids exited the cabin and he was able to stroll into the dining room with them. Big smiles all around. Another guest just had a kid and his wife didn't want him climbing with anyone but his standard partner at home and a guide when he was traveling. A bit extreme, but it makes sense considering the quality of partner you can get stuck with when you roll the dice on the partner finder!

@Adam would you be more comfortable letting a client take the lead on a multipitch if the belays were bolted and you could hand them a pre-tied anchor? If so, might be something the OP can consider when picking an objective.

Climb On wrote:

@Adam would you be more comfortable letting a client take the lead on a multipitch if the belays were bolted and you could hand them a pre-tied anchor? If so, might be something the OP can consider when picking an objective.

Personally, yes, but not entirely comfortable. It's not fool proof. I sometimes lower people after pre-rigging a quad to their tether and giving them explicit detailed instructions on how I want them to attach to the bolts when they arrive to the station. Inevitably, they do it differently than I describe despite demonstrating they understand before they leave me (not a big deal because I additionally protect them using other methods, but that's beside the point). People just blank sometimes when they're excited, overwhelmed, or stressed.

One of the first times I let a guest lead on a multipitch was the first bolt ladder of Ancient Art. I handed him a quad and could watch him clip every bolt including the anchor. I could also see his clove hitch and belay setup. That visual verification, not the anchor I provided him, is what really gave me peace of mind. It also helps that I was the person who literally taught this guy how to multipitch climb.

I want to iterate again these are my individual thoughts and feelings. There are no AMGA rules about guests leading. Companies may have their own policies, but each guide ultimately decides what is appropriate for each guest based on a large number of factors relating to the guide, guest, terrain, route, and conditions. 

For anyone who wants to get into the headspace of a guide, the podcast Starlight and Storm: The Inner Thought of a Mountain Guide offers some perspective. The episode When Clients Want to Step Out (Spotify link) relates to Andy's initial topic. The host mentions the guide/student relationship that gets built over a few days, months, or years and some of the risk/reward trade-offs I alluded to.

I have been out with guides a few times. Conversation is absolutely critical, all them to see if you get a good vibe. I don't know what "intermediate" climbing skills really means, but if your objective is to lead and get more confident some of that can be accomplished from the ground and then with bolted belays. If you want to have a longer term relationship with the guide, that is the way to go (I think) to build trust and a different kind of relationship (not partners, but more mentee in a way). My experiences were mostly due to travelling and wanting to get up stuff without partners. At one location, they told me to come back and lead after not being allowed to on the first day. At the other location I led all bolted single pitch sport. It was fine, the guide didn't want to climb and I got in more routes than I ever have in a day. At the third, our communication was not perfect, and I ended up doing a long multipitch where I wanted but not at the right route. That was a little bit of a bummer, and even though this route was way easy, the guide was not comfortable letting me lead because A. the trust wasn't there B. it was going to be stupid hot in about 2 hours so we had to go up and down as fast as possible. On point B he was sadly correct, we would have fried and had a terrible day.

When you go with a guide you get their expertise from someone who is not just credentialed but has spent a lot of time at that location. Just figure out a way to use that to your benefit and get as much info as necessary on the phone or over email before hand.

Adam Fleming wrote:

I want to give the guide perspective. Please understand I'm not trying to put down recreational climbers or anyone who hires guides. I love giving people a full value experience, but sometimes our risk tolerances don't align and we have to compromise. 

Some companies have insurance policies which prohibit guests leading entirely. That's the first hurdle you'll have to face. 

Letting guests lead is something I've really struggled with. For one, you're putting the guest at higher risk in a world where you typically try to minimize the risk guests are exposed to. Rescue is much harder when the victim is above you. Second, the guide is at higher risk. If the guest doesn't build an appropriate anchor or doesn't belay properly, the guide is essentially soloing. It can be near impossible to verify if the system is secure when you're a pitch below the leader. These factors are compounded the more remote you are and the more challenging self-rescue becomes. 

I've only let repeat guests lead on multipitch. I suppose I would let a guest referred to me by a trusted friend lead as well. I've had guests who "totally know their stuff" be absolutely dangerous junk shows. Sorry, but I'm not going to put my job and life on the line based on your word. 

One option you have is to do a half day with a guide before your big objective so y'all can make sure you're good to go. Then yes, you might be able to lead some pitches and let the guide rope gun for you. Your storied public ticklist on MP would certainly help put me at ease as well. Detailed notes about the rack, route, and other important info shows a level of understanding needed to be a competent leader. 

I wonder how you go climbing with a new partner outside of the guiding scenario.?

I am not a guide but I often climb with new partners often people who are traveling.   Typically I pick the 1st climb because I am the local.  I pick a climb that I am confident I can climb without falling.  I usually take the 1st pitch.  Depending on how competent and comfortable they seem following the 1st pitch I offer them the opportunity to lead the second pitch.  If they are incompetent then the day turns into a day of teaching them how to climb often by going down and starting from scratch.  If they are not comfortable leading after following the 1st pitch but are competent at belay and cleaning gear I will lead the rest of the climb.  It seems like this experience should be readily available from an actual guide.

EDIT:  I see issues with my approach if the desired climb is near the ability of the guide.

climber pat wrote:

I wonder how you go climbing with a new partner outside of the guiding scenario.?

I am not a guide but I often climb with new partners often people who are traveling.   Typically I pick the 1st climb because I am the local.  I pick a climb that I am confident I can climb without falling.  I usually take the 1st pitch.  Depending on how competent and comfortable they seem following the 1st pitch I offer them the opportunity to lead the second pitch.  If they are incompetent then the day turns into a day of teaching them how to climb often by going down and starting from scratch.  If they are not comfortable leading after following the 1st pitch but are competent at belay and cleaning gear I will lead the rest of the climb.  It seems like this experience should be readily available from an actual guide.

EDIT:  I see issues with my approach if the desired climb is near the ability of the guide.

I do pretty much the same thing when I climb recreationally. I pick a location that has a close approach and some easy routes. Preferably, I'll single pitch climb with someone first before doing multipitch. If things look good, great, I have a solid partner for next time we go out. If things look funky but they're open to comments and adjustment, also great. It's building trust over a period of time.

You're forgetting that guiding isn't just climbing with random people. It's work. It's work where you're responsible for another person's physical well-being and life. If your pick-up climbing partner places junk gear and decks because all his pieces blew, that's on him. If a guide is belaying in the same situation, it's negligence. 

Adam Fleming wrote:

For anyone who wants to get into the headspace of a guide, the podcast Starlight and Storm: The Inner Thought of a Mountain Guide offers some perspective. The episode When Clients Want to Step Out (Spotify link) relates to Andy's initial topic. The host mentions the guide/student relationship that gets built over a few days, months, or years and some of the risk/reward trade-offs I alluded to.

Thanks for sharing this! As a new climber trying to make it happen in a trad area, I've been working with a guide as my budget allows. Looking foreword to hearing the other end of it. 

I think it’s about establishing a relationship with a company/guide over time. The past three years I’ve gone to Colorado and used the same company to 1st trip- break down multi pitch & anchors, 2nd trip- swapped leads in eldo and climbed about 8 pitches, 3rd trip- had an alpine experience and climbed the petit. In my last trip I wanted to swap leads but didn’t have a problem with just following as it was my first time climbing with this particular guide. I can only imagine showing up to a parking lot with some rando that wants to swap leads in the alpine the first time meeting and for their first alpine route.

Anyway, each time it seems like they assessed how I climbed, my composure, and the route commitment/grade when making a decision. Getting to watch a guide do those things has taught me to do the same thing when considering certain objectives with my partners. Climbing with a guide is also great because in my experience they will quiz you, give you tips, ask you why you did x over y, etc. It has definitely helped. If you ever end up in areas where Thomas Gilmore goes I highly recommend giving him a shout. He’s on here, also has a good website of where he’ll be.

My very first guiding gig was climbing Drifting in Red Rocks. My client was no slouch! We hit it off so well that I rode with him up to Moab and led him up the North Face of Castleton Tower before hitching a ride back to Vegas with a friend.

What a way to start off a 15 year guiding career! The far more common scenario, however, is climbing as a much more “unbalanced” team. Usually I am 100% certain I will not fall (and hope my clients would catch me if I did but operate under the unspoken assumption that they won’t). That is one fear I have as a guide but it is mostly mitigated by confidence in my own ability. A far greater concern is that my client will hurt him or herself. For this reason I am VERY cautious about allowing a client to lead… the risks are just so much higher. Still, I consider it my job to see a climber progress (and indeed find fulfillment in “working myself out of a job”): When it comes to allowing a client to lead there are many risk management considerations and steps along the journey. It only happens with repeat clients and even then is a rare exception to the rule.

However, my most cherished guiding experiences have been with clients who become friends and then partners. One example: I had a client who hired me to guide him up the Rainbow Wall. He is very experienced (indeed, a “better” climber than I am), but valued his time and safety and had the money to spend on a reliable, enjoyable partner (ie guide… me). We had a great day together but afterwards I told him I could no longer in good conscience be his guide (even though I could probably have “sold” him on other great objectives) - I’d rather be his partner. And since then we’ve climbed together all over North America - including Yosemite, Potrero Chico (he supported me on my ascent of Sendero Luminoso), some alpine routes in Canada, with plans for more adventures in the future.

It is rare to have a client-guide relationship evolve this way, but it is entirely common to hire a guide to get your goals accomplished and to negotiate a more “balanced” partnership - and to enjoy one another as friends! I have many clients like this - Some will join me for social occasions, others I keep in touch with even when not climbing, and always we have a blast climbing together… But the very nature of the relationship will always be a little skewed since they’re the ones with the money and the guide is the one worrying about things you normally don’t think about in a partnership.

PS: One other thing: I never have “hustled” as a guide. It’s not me. OK maybe a little when I was starting out feeling like I had something to prove and clawing desperately for income. But no longer. Fortunately I can let the companies I work for and my existing clients do the work for me through referrals. But many, many guides do (hustle). I don’t fault them - they are often far more financially successful. But I do think clients should know going into it that a guide rarely is forthright about his or her “true” thoughts about the relationship.

I've had a guide catch some fairly substantial falls on a trad project.  Only time I've ever been out with a guide.  

I just really needed a belay that day, so I called the guiding company and said, "I want to lead X today. Can someone give me a catch?"

Other guides have pretty much nailed it as far as letting their clients lead.

I have had many clients who I absolutely wouldn't let lead aside from TR backed up mock leading. Several who I knew were good for it and I let them, even encouraged them to get their first leads in (both sport and trad) while I was guiding them. There have been a few rare clients who were far stronger than I and just needed a belay and reliable partner because they were traveling and didn't want to risk flaky rando partners... or they were with a son/daughter who could not belay them and they didn't want to waste time figuring out where to go to set up top ropes.

With clients who call in to book, I find often there is a pressure to do ___ big popular multipitch climb on ___ date and they want to lead some of it... There is not always time for them to get out before with a guide and have them assess the clients ability in a single pitch context. Trying to assess day of is kinda rough and we can't really promise that a guide will let them lead. Its the guides discretion.

If you really want to lead, building a relationship over time with the guide service and guides is the way to go... though I understand that if you can already lead you are not as likely to consider contacting a guide service in the first place. As well, as it is a paid service, you are trying to not spend more than you have to. Having a guide from a different service vouch for you would be nice, even if you have just climbed with them recreationally and not as a client. In the same way that no one takes harness hung belay certified cards seriously outside, guides can't just take you at your word on your ability and skill level, having someone else vouch for you helps a lot, but ultimately we have to see for ourselves. We have been burned far too many times. All guides will have many stories of how clients claimed ability and skill levels did not line up at all with reality... When parents call and say their very young comp climber kid crushes 5.12s in the gym... what do you think they are going to actually have fun on outside?

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

You can cook at home, but don’t go out and expect to cook. 

Boom!  Great analogy.  Just enjoy the meal of steep stone that the guide cooks up.

I mostly climb independently but will hire guides periodically, mostly when my wife/partner’s schedule doesn’t line up or if a guide I already know well and I set our eyes on something particularly interesting. I have climbed with the same small handful of guides pretty consistently over the years, and have found the following mindset to be helpful in that situation:

• The guide is working. Even if I am friends or friendly, they are still working when on-route. And in that line of work, working means assuming a ton of risk for themselves and for me. I respect that them leading the pitches on terrain far lower than their personal limit is actually a lower mental overhead for them than taking on additional risk in an already risky business. 
• Because I do want to be as much of a partner as possible while not leading pitches, I’ll try to pull as much weight when it comes to other things. I’ve played leader on enough climbs that I know hauling the group gear, collecting water, running the stove, etc, all takes a big toll on top of leading pitches. I will always try to do as much of that stuff as possible while being guided.
• I take it as a massive learning opportunity to learn from a climbing professional.
  
  
• Oh, and it’s fun :D

Jay Anderson wrote:

Boom!  Great analogy.  Just enjoy the meal of steep stone that the guide cooks up.

More like going to cooking school and watching the chef cook but not being allowed to cook because the chef is worried you will cut yourself chopping vegetables or burn yourself on the stove. So then you go home to try it yourself without the supervision of the chef to correct your mistakes. ☹️

I understand the guides perspective but the follow experience is not the same as the lead experience.  And lots of people don't have and extra $500 and a day to build the relationship.  I gather guides have plenty of business that not taking on clients that want to lead is viable and certainly their decision. 

Certainly SPI guides are dedicated to clients following but I would expect an AMGA rock guide to consider letting clients lead.  Why else get the all around certificate other than to guide bigger and more complex climbs allowing the client to learn more skills of which leading is a skill. Perhaps guiding is not really about teaching or at least teaching the full gambit of skills?   

I think this is sad especially since I have recently started to consider hiring a guide to partner up with for a 3 day climb I have wanted to do for years. Climbing the route with a guide is already logistically complex because it appears I will need to book the guide months in advance and to ensure a good weather window book and pay for for many more days than required for the climb.   If I cannot lead with a guide then I will not get the experience I want. So Instead I will continue to look for partners who are capable and interested in the same climb which are extremely rare especially considering i live in a backwater climbing area. 

climber pat wrote:

More like going to cooking school and watching the chef cook but not being allowed to cook because the chef is worried you will cut yourself chopping vegetables or burn yourself on the stove. 

Right, client taking a big lead fall multiple pitches off the ground is like client cutting their finger at chef school...

Don't shit on the guiding community for protecting themselves and honoring their insurance policy terms.  They are already assuming huge risks by taking you climbing.  Go find a partner for your big goal or follow a guide up it to learn the route and then go lead it.

climber pat wrote:

Certainly SPI guides are dedicated to clients following but I would expect an AMGA rock guide to consider letting clients lead.  

Assuming that you are competent, whether or not a guide will let you lead probably has more to do with the policies of their employer than their level of certification.

On the other hand, full guides tend to be more likely to own the company than SPIs, and thus have more control over those policies.  

I am aware of companies that let SPIs teach leading, and I am aware of companies that don't even let IFMGA Guides do it.

If you call up a guide service, they should be able to give you a "sometimes we do but there are lots of caveats vs. we never do that" answer over the phone.

Why else get the all around certificate other than to guide bigger and more complex climbs allowing the client to learn more skills of which leading is a skill. Perhaps guiding is not really about teaching or at least teaching the full gambit of skills?  

Well, the AMGA has this to say about the matter ( amga.com/faqs/):

What is the difference between a guide and a climbing instructor?

The terms guide and climbing instructor are often used interchangeably. However, according to the AMGA, a guide is someone working with one or two clients in technical terrain, who limits teaching to only what a client needs to know to move efficiently in that terrain.  A climbing instructor typically works with more people and focuses on educating and teaching skills to clients. [...]

Of course, in reality, virtually everyone who goes into guiding does so with a strong desire to teach rather than just get clients up and down the mountain for money, and many (most?) guides offer structured instructional courses in addition to their other services.

Also, SPIs are pretty strictly limited (especially starting this year) in terms of the terrain that is within their scope of practice; clients at classic Grade II crags like the Gunks are likely to want a multi-pitch experience and so higher certification will be worthwhile, even though they might not be guiding remote Grade VI routes like the one you have in mind.