Grigri is the shittiest assisted breaking belay device on the market

This is just a PSA, after reading all that controversy about Ondra's shitty belay and how people defending it. I personally despite Grigri and more importantly, I am very very wary when encountering new partners using Grigri, because I never know if they are going to abuse it at that very opportune time I take a big fall, a la mode Ashima Shiraishi accident by her father.

Here are the facts:

Grigri uses active camming. But it has one fatal problem: users need to finagle around the device to make it work.

Question: why do users need to use the official "thumb method" or, more egregiously, "clamping your whole hand around the device method" while using grigri?

Answer: Because Grigri is pain-in-the-butt to use. It locks up under certain situation, such as feeding rope very quickly. In order to work around this, people need to "disable" or "reduce the effect" of camming mechanism in order to make it work. So basically you design a device, but due to it poorly designed geometry, the breaking system has to be sidestepped in order to make it work. That is exactly the very definition of a poorly designed device.

What if I tell you there are devices that you operate 100% just a like an ATC, will all the benefit of activing camming, but you never need to finagle around the device to make it work(i.e. laying your hand one the device while belay such as clamping down the cam/thumb method)? Wouldn't that be a much better/safer device?

People cling to Grigri because it is the first on the market and it is most common. People are used to it and accept its defect as a matter-of fact. Because people are so used it, they seldom have motivation to try other devices. 

I used Grigri 2 for two years - hated it. I have tried pretty much all other assisted-braking devices: Click-up, Smart, Mega-jul, Giga-jul, Cinch, Vergo, Revo, Pilot, Matik, Birdie, and Lifeguard, my current personal favorite. 

Petzl got complacent - they never bother to improve the camming geometry. Once the patent had expired, other companies have jumped in and the design has improved to the point that Grigri's fatal problem has been fixed, not by Petzl itself, but by Mad Rock Lifeguard.

So stop buying that freaking shitty device known as Grigri. There are better assisted-braking belay device out there on the market.

End of PSA

No

Yukon Cornelius wrote:

No

The very definition of intelligence. Rebuttal without reasoning.

Jake Foster wrote:

…End of PSA rant

Fixed that

The OG gri gri is my choice down to 9.5mm ropes. current or 2nd model gri gri for smaller ropes. I can pay slack like a ATC 95% of the time without ever having to de cam the device.
Also de-camming (not finagling) to pay out slack is a brainless activity if you're well rehearsed. If paying slack with a gri gri is a "pain in the butt", you my friend, need to work on your technical skills.

On top of that, if it was so crap, why when the patent ended on the gri gri did so many companies come out with essentially a gri gri clone....because its the standard. You are the exception Jake.

What if I tell you there are devices that you operate 100% just a like an ATC, will all the benefit of activing camming....

I think we would appreciate to know what device you use that is so much better that functions like an ATC but actively cams (Or do you mean assisted braking geometry like a ****-JUL).

Mr Rogers wrote:

I think we would appreciate to know what device you use that is so much better that functions like an ATC but actively cams (Or do you mean assisted braking geometry like a ****-JUL).

He said it in his post: Mad Rock Lifeguard. 

I took a lead fall on a trad route that neither I nor my belayer would have anticipated a fall on, and the gri gri did well in this situation. My belayer was much smaller and lighter, so when I fell she got picked up and launched into the wall. When she  slammed into the wall her brake hand came off, but since the gri gri cammed up correctly we were ok. I typically advocate the use of standard ATC belay devices, but in certain scenarios (big climber /small belayer) a gri gri is good to have in your inventory. 

Mr Rogers wrote:

The OG gri gri is my choice down to 9.5mm ropes. current or 2nd model gri gri for smaller ropes. I can pay slack like a ATC 95% of the time without ever having to de cam the device.
Also de-camming (not finagling) to pay out slack is a brainless activity if you're well rehearsed. If paying slack with a gri gri is a "pain in the butt", you my friend, need to work on your technical skills.

On top of that, if it was so crap, why when the patent ended on the gri gri did so many companies come out with essentially a gri gri clone....because its the standard. You are the exception Jake.

I think we would appreciate to know what device you use that is so much better that functions like an ATC but actively cams (Or do you mean assisted braking geometry like a ****-JUL).

You can call it whatever euphemism you want to call it. I called by three different names "finagling", "disable", and "reduce the effect" of camming mechanism. They are all the same thing, namely, purposely disabling the very safety mechanism that makes this assisted-braking device work.

You said still need de-cam grigri 5% of the time, that is 5% of the time subjecting to failure mode, aka, for example, how Ashima got dropped by her father. 

I never ever need to lay my hand on Lifeguard. Ever. It is operated like an ATC. It pays out rope like ATC, never need to de-cam it in your 5% of the time, so it has 5% less chance of subjecting to failure more. I would definitely say Lifeguard is a better device based on this statistics alone.

Lifeguard is not a clone of Grigri. The camming geometry is different, it is improved version of Grigri such that it does not require the use to de-cam it.

Since the daily number of reply is capped. I reply other responses here. 

Tyler S wrote:

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/climbing/belay-device/mad-rock-lifeguard

Outdoor gear lab says the exact opposite. Mentioning that the Lifeguard is not as smooth at feeding out slack as the GriGri. I’ve never used it, so can’t comment personally. Curious if any other people agree with you, as I like the idea of the grigri but love the ease of feeding on my ATC.

Edit: “We think the difference is because the rope is enclosed inside the GriGri and the track helps it feed smoothly, whereas there is no bottom track for the rope in the Lifeguard.”

Yes, I have read the Outdoor gear lab review. My personal experience, along with people who have borrowed to use my device, are contrary to OGL's review.  This is the case of difference sources of review having conflicting take on the subject matter. For example, the following difference source portrays a difference take on the LIfeguard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlTL0c9_2no&ab_channel=ClimbingHoldReview%2FOutdoorGearReview

I can only say if you see someone using one. Borrow from the person to try it. My only message is that most people are "locked in" with Grigri because it is the very device they have used and bought, it is a sunk cost, and they won't bother to try other devices. Since you never try it personally, how do you know if it is better or not.

But the biggest telltale sign is that, if a device is designed optimally, why does Petzl's official video recommends the "thumb method" of de-camming, while Lifeguard's official video does not tell user to de-cam?

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/climbing/belay-device/mad-rock-lifeguard

Outdoor gear lab says the exact opposite. Mentioning that the Lifeguard is not as smooth at feeding out slack as the GriGri. I’ve never used it, so can’t comment personally. Curious if any other people agree with you, as I like the idea of the grigri but love the ease of feeding on my ATC.

Edit: “We think the difference is because the rope is enclosed inside the GriGri and the track helps it feed smoothly, whereas there is no bottom track for the rope in the Lifeguard.”

Jake Foster wrote:

You can call it whatever euphemism you want to call it. I called by three different names "finagling", "disable", and "reduce the effect" of camming mechanism. They are all the same thing, namely, purposely disabling the very safety mechanism that makes this assisted-braking device work.

You said still need de-cam grigri 5% of the time, that is 5% of the time subjecting to failure mode, aka, for example, how Ashima got dropped by her father. 

I never ever need to lay my hand on Lifeguard. Ever. It is operated like an ATC. It pays out rope like ATC, never need to de-cam it in your 5% of the time, so it has 5% less chance of subjecting to failure more. I would definitely say Lifeguard is a better device based on this statistics alone.

Lifeguard is not a clone of Grigri. The camming geometry is different, it is improved version of Grigri such that it does not require the use to de-cam it.

I own a lifeguard and a safeguard(no spring). Yes they are gri gri copies as they coudn't push that to market until the patent lapsed. If just changing the caming angle was enough to go to market they would not have had to wait for the patent to expire.

The spring tension is the main reason you don't have to decam the LG, not the caming angle. The safegaurd immediately locks up like a grillion as it has no spring.

The lifegaurd is a good device, but will cam on larger ropes when trying to feed slack (I had an old fuzzy ass 9.8 rope and it would start happening) so if you use you device for >10mm ropes you should not have much issue. but to say it wont cam when feeding slack is just not true.

I personally despite Grigri and more importantly, I am very very wary when encountering new partners using Grigri, because I never know if they are going to abuse it at that very opportune time I take a big fall, a la mode Ashima Shiraishi accident by her father.

Oh, you despite it, do you? I don't think anyone here considers your opinion of new partners important.

I think that with an ounce of honest reflection everyone would admit that any assisted belay device has caused them moments of finagling. You just learn your preference and move on with life. 

What inspired your angry rant on this beautiful sunday morning?

Jake Foster wrote:

You said still need de-cam grigri 5% of the time, that is 5% of the time subjecting to failure mode, aka, for example, how Ashima got dropped by her father. 

I never ever need to lay my hand on Lifeguard. Ever. It is operated like an ATC. It pays out rope like ATC, never need to de-cam it in your 5% of the time. 

Lifeguard is not a clone of Grigri. The camming geometry is different, it is improved version of Grigri such that it does not require the use to de-cam it.

I have both a lifeguard and a grigri, and have tortured both devices in the gym, trying to defeat them in every way possible.

They both catch, at a certain point, which means you can lock them with a hard yank. They both feed slack fine with a smooth, not too fast pull, which also means they can slip with a slow, low pull, fall. Both can be belayed with the same hand placement as an ATC, and both should have a hand on the brake strand. 

Grigri, imo, is still the best at progress capture, locking up quickly and staying locked. I'm comfortable with a single line rappel on a grigri, if need be, but not with the Lifeguard. I also wouldn't use a Lifeguard in progress capture situations. They both take a bit to catch with the brake strand up at all, but with that side down (even not locked down), they did okay even hands free.

Most of the time. 

The belayer is still the most important safety gear, by far. I use my ATC most of the time, because that's the belay my main climbing partner is used to, and what I am most used to. I can finesse the amount of slack much closer than grigri users usually do. ATC, shorter falls and softer catches. Grigri, longer fall and harder catch, and almost always more slack out. But, ATC means the full burden is on the belayer, and you're dealing with the climber weight yourself. That "assist" is the nice part of "assisted braking" devices.

Not everyone can partner with everyone, unless you are willing to modify what you do, to accommodate the other. That's an important, understated, and sometimes neglected part of partnering.

Grigris can promote forgetting that, and overconfidence that it's all good. Climbers slapping a grigri into the hands of a totally clueless nonclimber has killed people. At least with an ATC, it's pretty obvious how much depends on the belayer.

Best, Helen

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Not if you do it right. If you use just your thumb to de-cam it, a fall would easily override your thumb, and the Gri Gri will lock up just fine. But with ropes under 9.5 (and these days no one should be using anything fatter) I almost never have to do the thumb-over method anyway.

https://youtu.be/jKe72j_mBlU

This is pretty sobering, and a fun watch, since it's done out in the field!!

H.

Why do climbers always have this moral posturing of superiority based on their arbitrary personal preferences? Is this an annoying climbing culture thing, or a broader human tendency?

JCM wrote:

Why do climbers always have this moral posturing of superiority based on their arbitrary personal preferences? Is this an annoying climbing culture thing, or a broader human tendency?

I would argue that it's a human tendency that really shines in areas where our ego is more present, so we see it a lot in climbing.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

That is interesting, but the correct way to use the thumb-over is to still hold onto the brake strand with pinky, ring, and middle finger, so even if you have an iron thumb, you’ll still catch the fall.

Yup! 

I actually played with it, and had to throw the brake side rope over my shoulder to unweight it enough to not catch in a simulated fall (hard pull) hands free. The weight of the rope on the ground put it in the brake position. Even the most minimal "hold" on the brake side does it. Get that brake side rope above the device somehow, though, and it's a different story.

Messing around with the devices is a great way to see the nuances of them, and it's fun, too!

I still love this vid!

H.

EDIT to add, re the Lifeguard, it does not lock as hard or abruptly as a grigri. Like most all of the cam type devices other than a grigri, it allows a little bit of slip, by design. That's the difference explained upthread, between the Lifeguard and the Safeguard, which does lock hard. I've used the Safeguard too, as it is what my gym originally had on their top ropes.

Having only used the Grigri, Vergo, and Smart, the Grigri is definitely the last one I'd reach for in the everyday assisted lead belay (free climbing) scenario. With the Smart, there is no reason whatsoever to be tempted to take your hand off the brake strand. It feeds and lowers well, is very predictable, and is completely ambidextrous. Rappelling is a bit of a chore when there's lots of rope weight hanging, but I'd usually prefer to rap with a tube device anyway. The Vergo feeds much better than a Grigri, so there's also less temptation to let go with the brake hand. It feels very ergonomic in the hand too. The grigri used to be the only assisted belay device around, but there are better options out there now. It's continued popularity reminds me of the affinity soccer moms have for big SUVs. 

JCM wrote:

Why do climbers always have this moral posturing of superiority based on their arbitrary personal preferences? Is this an annoying climbing culture thing, or a broader human tendency?

I've actually felt something similar from some grigri users a few times... as if you're an unsafe belayer if you're using anything other than a grigri. Maybe the OP has experienced the same and just wants to open a few minds to other devices, so as not to get that raised eyebrow and "don't you have a grigri?" reaction when you pull out your X device? I know that the "proper" use of a grigri is just as safe as anything, but given the number of times I've seen people improperly use the grigri in a way that negates any safety advantages it may have, this topic may not be as much about posturing or superiority as it sounds. Those observations could be due, in part, simply to the large numbers of grigris in the field. I've also wondered if, over time, people who know that they lack good belaying attention, have migrated to using grigris from tube devices. Ultimately, the belayer matters more than the device, but some devices help make up for weaknesses more than others, which is where I'd wager the OP is coming from. This is MP though... I could be wrong. 

I used my 8.5 rope the other day with a grigri and it was the most wonderful experience of my life. Literally couldn't lock it up even when short roping. Normally I reluctantly use a grigri with lead belaying, but yeah just use a skinnier rope. Otherwise I guess suuuure use a different device. They honestly all probably work and all will have pros and cons. Grigri is just the first and most widely accepted device, but I'd rather have a partner who can hold their belay well and hold their brake strand than someone with a fancy device.

Yaaaaaaaawn!!!!