perception of outdoor clothing brands

Hi all,

What companies do you think are doing a good job on women's clothing? Which ones are lacking? Any products that you wish came in women's cut, but don't (yet)?

I'm getting a masters in product design, and one of my areas of interest is technical/outdoor clothing. I've also worked in the outdoor retail world. Over this time, I have made many observations about how brands handle their men's vs women's clothing line, and I'm curious to hear whether women had any of the same comments or criticisms. I have no ties to any brand or organization, simply posting out of personal interest. 

PS, full disclosure, I'm a man, hope I'm allowed to post here. 

I've seen several (guy) climbers with these pants and I really really wish they had them in women's sizes

https://www.kuhl.com/kuhl/mens/pants/renegade-cargo-convertible/

They seem really great and for a while I considered trying to get the young boy's version but was worried about the sizing. If they just made them in women's sizes it would be so great. 

I've looked at kuhl's women's line and was suggested when messaging them was told that the closest was the kliffside https://www.rei.com/product/112451/kuhl-kliffside-convertible-pants-womens

I have other problems with sizing (I'm closer to 5' so even the petite sizes for outdoor pants I usually have to hem), and they didn't have a petite version. But even if I could hem them, I was really wary about the photos, when you look at the pocket design it looks just as bad as every other women's pants out there (i.e. they don't look like they fit enough stuff compared to the men's version. I think one of my friends also complain about the prana halle(?) pants zip pocket on the side being ALMOST big enough for a phone, but just too small). 

In general, my phone is always in danger of falling out of my pockets, because women's clothing is not made with functional pockets. I've seen some guys pockets fit like, a disposable water bottle and then some ?? You have enough space for a phone and a wallet (and keys)??? You even have TWO pockets and then some, and you could fit TWO wallets and phones and keys (like, to carry your girlfriend's in addition to your own, because she doesn't have pockets). I'm so jealous. I think I mentioned the ems pants on a different forum post but I like them as a short person and I think they have the most functional pockets I have come across so far: https://www.ems.com/ems-womens-camp-cargo-zip-off-pants/33527800401.html 

TBH I also have this complaint for most women's jackets having pockets that are too small. When I got a snowboarding jacket I was amazed at how much fit in the pockets (that is to say: even for my other outdoor jackets, besides my snowboarding one, the pockets suck on the women's version).

This doesn't directly answer your question, but I've been looking for a new pair of ice climbing pants for a couple of years and coming up short--ha ha actually I've come up long because there don't seem to be many brands offering a lightly insulated softshell pant in a choice of inseam lengths. 

In fact, there aren't that many ice climbing pants out there, period. Most of what I see are ski pants, and those tend to have voluminous legs (not so great for watching your feet) and internal gaiters (overkill). 

I've had to resort to altering every pant I buy. And it's not a simple matter of hemming them, because the bottom of the pant usually has (or should have) crampon-proof Kevlar kick patches and a zipper. I cut off about 6" below the knee and sew 'em back together again. PITA!

Probably not a gender-specific issue, though. I don't see a lot of men's tech pants offered with an inseam choice, so what do shorter men do?

My perception of outdoor clothing brands in general is that if we're talking about pants or shorts, they almost never fit me.  I'm 5'4" and my measurements are 37"/ 29" / 39".  The chest size is mostly because of large back muscles and the hip size is well proportioned glutes.  Most outdoor gear brands "women's" lines seem to cater to thinner, less curvy women.  The only brands I've found where I can find pants that fit are Athleta and sometimes Lululemon, and neither of those are exactly climbing or alpine wear.  Fortunately, I had an ancient pair of J-Rat pants that fit perfectly, and when they wore out, I deconstructed them for the pattern.  Ever since, I've sewn my own climbing pants from Ponte knit.  I've basically given up on commercial brands.

My perception is that “shrink it and pink it” is still very much alive. European brands fit me better than American brands.

I’m the opposite of “curvy”, 5’2” with wide lats, nonexistent breasts, and 26in waist/35in hips. I climb in leggings, bc pants don’t fit. I can hardly ever find the sizes that fit me in brick-and-mortar stores.

Sports bras are a big struggle. I used to always climb in tank tops with built-in shelf bras, perfectly adequate for me, bc I don’t really need any “support” for my chest. Patagonia, Stonewear Designs, Mountain Hardwear, Smartwool, and a bunch of other brands had them, at one point. But not anymore.

Unfortunately now all the brands in unison have stepped away from built-in shelf bras, and the current style is to have a sports bra with pretty straps on the back, and a very lightweight tank that can’t be worn on its own, without a sports bra.  I have no trouble finding tanks that accommodate the lats, bc they are now lightweight and looser-fitting (la Sportiva is really killing it with their tank tops right now, lightweight, comfy, great colors that are bright, but not “girly pink and purple”). But that sports bra that needs to go under the tank… ugh! I’m pretty close to saying screw it, I’m going bra-less, and if it looks weird, so be it.

As far as pants go, the E9 pants are the only one I found that fit me, but they keep changing their styles every 6 months, and the sizing varies greatly from one model to another, so now that my favorites are completely worn own, I will have to order every model, try them on, and hope that at least one fits… then would have to pay to return the rest.  

North Face seems to be designed for people with arms and legs at least 6 inches longer than mine.

Outdoor research thinks “tent-like” is a style of choice. Recently ordered an echo long-sleeved tee, and echo tank, in the same size as the old echo top I had. The shirt is a lot longer/looser than my old top, and the sleeves are longer, too, but still ok, I kept it. The tank… I dunno, if I take the waist in by about 10 inches, it would be perfect.

Patagonia is going more and more “lifestyle”, and less and less technical, and also changing the fit to be more and more “roomy”. I don’t know what I would do when my old R1 (12 years old at this point) bites the dust. 

Rab is my favorite down jacket, and an old Patagonia nano-puff. But they are making those Nano-puffs more and more stylishly-fitted. Don’t need that!

don’t get me started on climbing shoes and harnesses…

I think the bottom line is that no matter what size you are, you have to try a whole bunch of things, before you find what fits

Dara wrote: Probably not a gender-specific issue, though. I don't see a lot of men's tech pants offered with an inseam choice, so what do shorter men do?

Short-ish man right here (1.73 m) 

Mammut, La sportiva as well as Ortovox all offer short versions of their softshell pants, at least in the men versions.
i m using 2 pants in short version from La sportiva, very happy with it. 

I like that Eddie Bauer regularly has Guide Pro pants in women’s short sizes available, but I haven’t seen this for all models- like the Alpine Guide. I feel like the lack of short sizes definitely results in me returning a decent number of pants. Arc has short pants sizes available, but they can go quickly. I’d say lack of short inseam options has been an issue for me. The other would be women’a models skimping on features compared to the men’s version. Fewer pockets, borderline decorative pockets, that sort of thing. I’ve seen this looking for a belay parka. Men’s version could have two exterior chest pockets and two dump pockets, and the women's will have one of each (looking at you, Montane).

Edit: also, pants for different body types. Having too much booty and thicker thighs, but a small waist- can be a challenge to find pants that fit well. 

I really wish the prana Zion came in women’s.  Leave everything the same except the crotch area. I still wear the mens but I feel a bit awkward when I sit down and the crotch bunches up.

I know a few women said it up thread but it bears repeating. For the love of god, give us real pockets. 

I’m going to add that it’s hard to find good technical clothing or gear (particularly winter/ice/ski) gear in really (really) small sizes.  I can‘t be the only <5’ < 100 lb < size 5 shoe out there.  

Lena chita wrote:

I’m the opposite of “curvy”, 5’2” with wide lats, nonexistent breasts, and 26in waist/35in hips. I climb in leggings, bc pants don’t fit. I can hardly ever find the sizes that fit me in brick-and-mortar stores.

Sounds very much like me. I haven't bought new climbing clothes in ages, but Verve pants were a good fit and I'm still wearing my old ones to the gym.

Things I can't find now that I miss: my old Isis sports bra that says "you are a goddess" on the inside of the band and the cotton Patagonia sweatshirts with three snaps in front.

wendy weiss wrote:

Sounds very much like me. I haven't bought new climbing clothes in ages, but Verve pants were a good fit and I'm still wearing my old ones to the gym.

Things I can't find now that I miss: my old Isis sports bra that says "you are a goddess" on the inside of the band and the cotton Patagonia sweatshirts with three snaps in front.

I used to have Verve pants! They were a good fit. And a Verve bra. The pants I have worn into the ground. And the bra at this point has lost all elastic, so it’s not staying in place. 

Mum Climber wrote:

I’m going to add that it’s hard to find good technical clothing or gear (particularly winter/ice/ski) gear in really (really) small sizes.  I can‘t be the only <5’ < 100 lb < size 5 shoe out there.  

OMG, the <5 shoe size and 4’11” is my daughter. She is done growing, and it’s so incredibly hard to find good shoes for her. Kids shoes usually end the range below 5, and are mostly flimsy/not good quality, and well, childish. The adult shoes don’t start until 5. And yes, the ski pants are impossible! 

Lena chita wrote:

 And the bra at this point has lost all elastic, so it’s not staying in place. 

Elastic in general is one of the weakest links in clothing design, even though it is one of the best and most useful features for functionality.  I currently have 2 pairs of dress shorts and 2 sport bras on my sewing repair table that need elastic replacement.

Even on my husband's clothing, he'll come to me periodically with complaints about elastic being worn out.  Here is a pair of Prana shorts where I just sewed an internal sleeve onto the existing waistband and inserted a new elastic.  I really hate putting something into the landfill if I can do a cheap repair.  Now he'll get another couple of years use out of them.

I adore ucraft for pockets, durability, and movement on the rock. I also wear the pants hiking and traveling. They aren’t as dependable for size from one pant/shorts to the next. Their consistency isn’t perfect, but I have three pairs of the unisex full length xlite and I love them, even though one is a little snugger than the others. I’m 5’1” 29 waist and 37.5 full hip and I wear the XS in the unisex. If I were any bigger, I’d want a small. Notwithstanding, they are also a Ukrainian company, so it feels good to support that—just be patient with shipping. https://ucraftclimbing.com/us/xlite-women-s-climbing-pants.html