Single use propane cannisters likely to be banned in california.

Five year phase out.

https://gearjunkie.com/news/california-single-use-gas-can-ban

how dare they be reasonably environmentally conscious in a way that affects me 

Notably isobutane is off the hook, which I'd imagine is the type most frequently used by climbers. I hardly ever use the Coleman single use ones anymore. 

None of mine are single use. I refill them.

IGD

I've been using this transfer tool for years. I have one small canister (that fits in the jetboil) that I fill up with the massive ones. It's also great to siphon the quarter full canisters left by thru hikers in hiker boxes or in the Yosemite fuel can recycling bins!

In europe  the small  cans  are refillabe (comercially not bootleg) have been  for years.

Max G wrote:

It's also great to siphon the quarter full canisters left by thru hikers in hiker boxes or in the Yosemite fuel can recycling bins!

Don't they just equalize? I mean, if you had four canisters that were each 1/4 full, could you siphon 3 into 1 to make 1 full canister?

wivanoff wrote:

Don't they just equalize? I mean, if you had four canisters that were each 1/4 full, could you siphon 3 into 1 to make 1 full canister?

I was wondering the same thing… maybe gravity causes the liquid to fall down into the bottom container and then the gas pressures equalize?

mbk wrote:

I was wondering the same thing… maybe gravity causes the liquid to fall down into the bottom container and then the gas pressures equalize?

If you heat up the top container and chill the bottom container, the pressure in the top container will rise and the pressure in the bottom container will drop. When the valve is opened most of the gas in the top container will then flow into the bottom container, until the pressures equalize. Heating up the top container does have a few hazards of its own, though.

Mark explains it well.  Liquid will flow from the warmer top canister (cools it) to the cooler bottom canister (warms it) until the temperatures equalize, or until the top canister becomes only gaseous, or until the bottom canister is completely full of liquid (bad!).

I’m curious about the 80% limit. Insure a gas cushion / buffer to prevent rupture as the filled one warms afterwards? Pretty sure that is the concern. 

Bill Lawry wrote:

I’m curious about the 80% limit. Insure a gas cushion / buffer to prevent rupture as the filled one warms afterwards? Pretty sure that is the concern. 

Most of the canisters were never meant to be refilled at all, so I'm not sure what's going to happen to the integrity of the valve on the canister after a few refills. Also, the original contents of the canisters is frequently 20% propane/80% isobutane. I'm not sure how consistently that ratio could be maintained after a few transfers of fuel from one canister to another. The 80% limit sounds like a vague attempt by the manufacturer to prevent too many ruptured or leaking containers. The whole idea of transferring gas from one disposable container to another like that sounds like an accident waiting to happen, and the economic benefits seem pretty marginal. I just use my canisters until they're empty, and if I have to start a backcountry trip with an extra partially filled canister once in a while that's OK with me.

june m wrote:

In europe  the small  cans  are refillabe (comercially not bootleg) have been  for years.

Eh? The smallest commercially refillable gas cylinder is the Camping Gaz 904 which takes 1.81kg of gas and weighs 4.61kg. Hardly a disposable back-packer item.

Will C wrote:

Eh, just toss it in the microwave. What's the worst that could happen?

Maybe you'll break the glass tray inside? That's the worst that would happen. 

Unless of course you threw it in there AND also turned the microwave on at level 10 for 10 minutes or something.

Note: if you're new to climbing, don't do either of the above, as it can create microfractures in your carabiners, depending on how close they are to your microwave at the time.

wivanoff wrote:

Don't they just equalize? I mean, if you had four canisters that were each 1/4 full, could you siphon 3 into 1 to make 1 full canister?

If you have two similar cans with similar amount of fuel, it might not work too well, or take a while or do the what's explained below.

mark felber wrote:

If you heat up the top container and chill the bottom container, the pressure in the top container will rise and the pressure in the bottom container will drop. When the valve is opened most of the gas in the top container will then flow into the bottom container, until the pressures equalize. Heating up the top container does have a few hazards of its own, though.

What he said, I've never had to do this though. I use the massive one and it fills the smallest one in about a minute (you can hear the liquid fuel flowing).

mark felber wrote:

Most of the canisters were never meant to be refilled at all, so I'm not sure what's going to happen to the integrity of the valve on the canister after a few refills. 

The whole idea of transferring gas from one disposable container to another like that sounds like an accident waiting to happen, and the economic benefits seem pretty marginal.

A valve is a valve. The tool does nothing different than what a jetboil/stove receiver does to the valve, yet you're not scared about your stove damaging your valve.

The only thing I've experienced is that with this tool, it may fill the receiver canister "too" much and instead of the usual nice fast small flame, it's bhabit urning liquid fuel in kind of a fireball. I've gotten into the habit of testing the canister on safe area after I fill it to make sure that I burn through the amount of fuel to make it work normally (I found that out on Pharoe's ledge on el cap, it was fun!)

mark felber wrote:

Most of the canisters were never meant to be refilled at all, so I'm not sure what's going to happen to the integrity of the valve on the canister after a few refills.

Valid point. Why design a valve in a single-use container to withstand the wear and tear of multi-use? Does not make economic sense.

Also, the original contents of the canisters is frequently 20% propane/80% isobutane. I'm not sure how consistently that ratio could be maintained after a few transfers of fuel from one canister to another. 

Performance does seem to degrade near the end of a cannister under normal use.  Adding the mixture from one partial to another partial is not going to help matters.

The 80% limit sounds like a vague attempt by the manufacturer to prevent too many ruptured or leaking containers.

But that’s not the manufacturer of the canister but of the transfer device.  Agreed. It’d be a scary thing to be sitting near a warming lower canister that suddenly ruptures - flame or no flame. Best to be conservative and so totally avoid.

Perhaps such a ban would drive manufacturers to redesign these canisters for reuse.  Refilling these single-use canisters may be unhelpful in the long run.  

To avoid over filling, you can always make sure you don't exceed the capacity of the canister (i.e. the amount listed as its capacity) by knowing the tare weight of each can and measuring on a kitchen scale. I do a hot (tap) water bath for the top can and an ice water bath for the bottom can. I've taken 4 mostly empty cans and refilled a single can.

http://troop281.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Fuel-Canister-Weight-Chart.pdf

I've used the transfer gadget for a few years now and haven't encountered any issues. If you're filling cylinders of any kind, you really do need to use a scale. Keeps from overpressure and blowing your rig up, but it's also important to know when your cylinder is full because you want to utilize as much volume as you can. If I was going on an expedition that really depended on it I would just purchase new isobutane canisters.

I hope they have plans for re-fillable canisters in the near future since it's a pain in the ass doing it yourself, and liquid fuel stoves are seeing more and more restrictions in places that catch on fire all the time. 

They probably just want us to buy new stoves. 

Or just use a whisperlite or other liquid stove. Practically the same weight as most self-contained isobutane stove systems with a fraction of the waste.

I haven’t done a wall myself, but I saw Sean Villanueva O'Driscoll use a whisperlite on a wall in a video once; I’m basically an expert.

Edit: Plus, you can visually assess your fuel level on longer trips rathe than the shake and shrug estimation with iso-canisters. 

Dunno nuthin whatever about propane canisters. But as of this morning, I can report that ants survive being microwaved. Stupid little fuckers can invade anything.

Best, H.

wivanoff wrote:

Don't they just equalize? I mean, if you had four canisters that were each 1/4 full, could you siphon 3 into 1 to make 1 full canister?

Simply installing a Maxwell’s Demon—if you can find one—will solve this problem.