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Questions regarding rain jackets

Original Post
El Duderino · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 70

I'm trying to decide between the OR Foray II and the Black Diamond Highline Shell. Historically, I've always erred on the side of 3L rain shells because they seemed more durable and less clammy feeling. However, the 2.5LForay has a higher (28,000 vs 20,000) hydrostatic head rating, but then again, I don't know how much the extra 8,000mmm would really help in most situations. Also, I've heard a lot about GoreTex being primarily good advertising at this point, that the technology is not necessarily better than other waterproof membranes. I don't see a lot of direct comparison, though, at least not with BD.Dry, which happens to be the jacket I'm interested in. Any experiences with the BD.Dry?

Long Ranger · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 669

I'm simplifying greatly, but the more layers, the more durability. There's a place for 10kmm/HH jackets - not a bad thing to have a tiny thing to to bring up a multipitch (rather than nothing!), or backpacking in the desert. You may find that lacking in the PNW on a month-long backpacking trip. 

The GoreTex membraine tech is sound; it's just that the patent has run out, so there are copycats used by manufacturers that don't want/care about the brand name. Gore only has their testing protocol (they test the manufacturers stuff and give it the OK) to fall back on. The way things are layered is the real difference. 

So ask yourself what are you going to use the jacket for, how much abuse is it going to receive, how much do you want to spend over how much use are you going to get out of it?

that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 236

Oh man there's a lot here to un pack. So you are somewhat correct performance wise. Goretex isn't the best but I wouldn't look down on it either goretex still makes a very good membrane, paclite isn't very breathable but will be quite a bit more durable than the BD. I can't comment as to how good the BD membrane is without knowing whta technology its using though I'm going to guess its probably a hydrophilic PU membrane. These membranes are at a high risk of hydrolysis so is inherently much less durable than the PTFE membrane of the goretex. I would really recommend you try and find a gore active shell membrane. 

Regarding 2.5 vs 3 layer 2.5 will always be less durable and less breathable because of the PU inner coating, 3 layer really is where its at if you can. 

Eli W · · Oregon · Joined Aug 2021 · Points: 0

BD.dry uses a monolithic PU membrane, the same basic construction and performance as most house-brand membranes— The Patagonia torrentshell is probably the most popular 3L monolithic PU shell. Pertex shield 3L (not pertex shield pro/air) is the same. 3L mPU is much more durable than 2/2.5L mPU, but I’ve experienced delamination after 4-5 years. I’m not sure how much that’s a property of 3L mPU in general or just specific implementations.

Anecdotally, 3L monolithic PU is very waterproof, but only moderately breathable. With both goretex paclite and 3L mPU mechanical ventilation is key.

I have a circa 2016 foray that I use around town and for spring/fall backpacking when I don’t want to put wear and tear on my nice hardshell, and I think it’s a very decent rain shell if you can get it on sale for a $120 or so. Mechanical ventilation is awesome, and the hood is very well designed to move with your head and doesn’t restrict range of motion. No helmet compatibly and the coil main zip (ices up, is difficult to manipulate with gloves) limit its utility for more technical stuff. At this point it’s starting to delaminate, but 7 years is very impressive for a 2 layer fabric.

Since I bought my foray , OR has come out with “ascentshell” which is a three layer fabric with the same electrospun PU membrane tech as polartec neoshell (and TNF futurelight). I think they have a couple shells with that material in the $200-$300 range, and that’s definitely what I would go with over paclite or mPU.

I have an ascentshell bivy and shell gloves, and IME, it’s very breathable (significantly more breathable than goretex pro) and slightly air permeable. Less waterproof; in specific circumstances such standing still in wind driven rain or direct contact with wet surfaces it does wet through, but generally it shouldn’t be a concern as given the stellar breathability you’ll be drier on the balance.


edit:

TL;DR:

BD.dry/generic 3L monolithic PU: waterproofness 3, breathability 2, durability 2

Generic 2/2.5L monolithic PU: waterproofness 2, breathability 1, durability 0

Goretex Paclite: waterproofness 3, breathability 2, durability 2 

3L goretex: waterproofness 3, breathability 3, durability 3

Ascentshell/Neoshell/futurelight/electrospun PU: waterproofness 2.5, breathability 4, durability 2.5

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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