Normal damage after two days of use? (Scarpa Instinct VS)

I had a somewhat similar experience with tenaya. My shoes were soled badly, and there was a air bubble inbetween the rubber and the synthetic leather material. It was obnoxious how many emails it took to get resolved; but they gave me half off the cost of purchase and let me keep the shoes. They orginally said they would send a brand new pair of shoes, then they ghosted me for two weeks, and finally answered; saying they could do partial refund of payment. Needless to say; I'm not a fan of Tenaya any more.

rock climbing wrote:

Do you have a photo? I think what talking about is more of a wrinkle. If you have one of those, it will most likely delaminate even if it is somewhere on the heel.

50% is what tenaya made on the shoe before they had to pay for materials, labor, marketing and all that stuff. 

I can look. I think they were on my previous phone. It was less an inch away from the tip of the shoe, along where the sole meets the rubber rand. You could poke it and it went in. Seemed obvious to me that it would fail sooner than later. Minor problem, but still worth mentioning since they were brand new. I was just frustrated that they offered shoes; then took it back after no contact for a solid minute. 

rock climbing wrote:

Usually there are only 3 rubbers used in shoe making natural, SBR and nitrile. I  don’t think any one use natural rubber for soles maybe rands but I doubt it, the color rands I think are nitrile on some shoes.

Another thing about SBR  that it gets hard at colder temperatures. It is the reason people say that Vibram doesn’t do well in cold weather. Rubbers that do better in the cold are a blend of SBR and butyl or just butyl.

I think everyone moved from butyl to SBR or a blend because of cost and that it is easier to glue.

Butura changed their original rubber too. You can easily tell by they way it grinds 

Fascinating, thanks! Do you have an opinion on the best widely available rubbers? Any thoughts on Davos's "no-memory" compounds?

rock climbing wrote:

Davo's no memory? Is that the Zero? That compound what  La sportiva uses on toe patches, rand around the bottom of the heel and annoyingly on tc pro and on some mythos front rand. It has really low resilience and wears out really fast. Not good for edging and granite makes it look like a cheese grader. I'm surprised that they actually sell it as a sole rubber. 

I like c4 and xgrip. 

Most of the Davos details are here: tahoegripworks.com/resoles/…, though this resoler appears to hand measure durometers which differ slightly from the listed catalogues that I've seen. And the statement on "no-memory" rubber is from Davos's own ad copy and also present at Onsight Resoles page: https://www.onsightresoles.com/rubbers. Unclear what this means in terms of measured resilience.

rock climbing wrote:

I think what they say is that it has really low resilience. Probably why they call it Zero because it has zero resilience. 

The Techno is the rubber they make for Scarpa Veloce. Stick plus is harder (shore 87) and it is on beginner shoes.
Both Techno and a plus does not behave like the Zero

First time I heard of the term no memory, a lot of people refer to sticky rubber as dead rubber. But it makes sense the dead people have no memory.

Thanks again! Seems like you have a wealth of knowledge on this topic. Are you a resoler by any chance? It took me weeks/months to find the durometers that I was able to find from customer service chats and old resoling catalogues. Still have no idea what's best, though it's been fun tracking things down and learning a bit. Also still haven't found details on Trax XE or Butora's hard Neoforce rubber. Both seem harder than Edge on the thumbnail test.

I also learned a lot from mr.rock climbing and I want to vocalize the appreciation.

rock climbing wrote:

You are welcome.

I'm not a resoler, I'm a designer. If you are looking for a resoler this guy is good. He originally wanted to make shoes but he didn't have enough money to get it started, so he started to resole. 

Hardsend.com 

Ah, thanks again! And nope, not looking at a resole currently, I just really like learning the details and engineering behind products and have done a bit of design work in other fields. Also curious if you have an opinion on XSGrip vs XSGrip2? It's interesting to me that Tahoe Gripworks reported the durometer of XSGrip as relatively hard (~78) when in the catalogue I've seen it's listed as softer (~70) than Grip2 (~74).

rock climbing wrote:

Are you trying to design air make climbing shoes?

Ah nope, I just like obsessively learning details about things that I like. Although now that you mention it, I could conceive of trying to modify a few old shoes someday? Hmmm.

Edit: And I actually follow Hard Send on Instagram! Been wondering how their custom designs have turned out. Looked Hiangle-ish from the picture I've seen.

Every time I use them outside the soles get noticeably worse. It doesn't look like the rubber is "stabilizing" or anything like that.

So, It's been two weeks since I took the shoes to the shop and they told me they'd contact Scarpa, and they say there's been no response from them. Does anyone know if there's a specific online form or email address where you can send warranty claims directly to Scarpa (Europe)? And does anyone have experience with Scarpa customer service in general?

Francesco Mannone wrote:

Every time I use them outside the soles get noticeably worse. It doesn't look like the rubber is "stabilizing" or anything like that.

So, It's been two weeks since I took the shoes to the shop and they told me they'd contact Scarpa, and they say there's been no response from them. Does anyone know if there's a specific online form or email address where you can send warranty claims directly to Scarpa (Europe)? And does anyone have experience with Scarpa customer service in general?

Scarpa might be different, but I had an easier time working with the store I bought them from for a refund.  

Francesco Mannone wrote:

Update: 

This is how the rubber looks after having used the shoes one more time on the same boulders and having taken them to the crag for some sport climbing on limestone.

And again, for the sake of comparison, the sole of my Evolv Phantoms that have been used for many months now:

I don't know what to think, the jaggedness of the erosion marks is a bit worrying, haven't seen anything like it on mine or my friends climbing shoes before.

That looks completely normal for every show I’ve ever owned (5.10, evolv, Scarpa, Sportiva, Tenaya, boreal). I don’t think you should pursue this as a defect, it is simply an expected result of the rubber compound and the type of rock you are climbing. 

Linnaeus wrote:

That looks completely normal for every show I’ve ever owned (5.10, evolv, Scarpa, Sportiva, Tenaya, boreal). I don’t think you should pursue this as a defect, it is simply an expected result of the rubber compound and the type of rock you are climbing. 

The thing is, this rubber compound is supposed to be durable, and this type of rock isn't destroying my friends shoes or my other shoes for that matter. Moreover, they have seen just four 15m sport pitches and a dozen burns on boulders, and that's why I find the condition of the rubber suspect. Having the soles looking like this after a full season wouldn't faze me, but that's not what's happening here. And a few other people in the thread agree with that impression.

I have no way of "scientifically" testing the rubber to see if it's behaving as it should, but in a month I'll be resoling a pair of old Phantoms with XS Edge as an experiment, and I'll compare the rate of wear between them and the Scarpas.