Normal damage after two days of use? (Scarpa Instinct VS)

I bought a new pair of Instinct VS just two weeks ago and I've since tried them three times, first one indoors and the next two on outdoor boulders. After finishing the first outdoor session I saw some signs of sole damage, mostly some caving in of the rubber but nothing too worrying. Then, after using them for the second time, despite being extra careful with them, the soles show clear holes and some weird deformations. 

On these sessions my main shoes have actually been a pair of Evolv Phantoms that have a good 9 months of use in them, which have come away unscathed from the same exact footholds on the same boulders. ¿Has this happened to anyone else with shoes fitted with Vibram XS Edge sole? ¿Is this particular sole defective?

Scarpa Instinct VS (used 1 time indoors, 2 times outdoors):

Evolv Phantom (used for 9 months in bouldering and sport climbing, both indoors and outdoors):

sharp rock?

In my experience, Evolvs have some of the most durable rubber. That doesn’t seem strange for me if you’ve climbed on sharp rock, as the Vibram rubber is a lot more sticky, but less durable long term 

Live Perched wrote:

sharp rock?

Yup, I have a pair of shoes that a small crystal took out the tip of the toe. No different that cutting a new rope on sharp rock. Sucks.

Emilio Sosa wrote:

In my experience, Evolvs have some of the most durable rubber. That doesn’t seem strange for me if you’ve climbed on sharp rock, as the Vibram rubber is a lot more sticky, but less durable long term 

Vibram XS Edge is more sticky than Trax SAS?

Webfoot wrote:

Vibram XS Edge is more sticky than Trax SAS?

Less sticky when covered in dust and mud. 

Live Perched wrote:

sharp rock?

With the boulders being in a cave, water dripping through the rock has rounded most edges and the rock tends to be slick. That's why I find it weird that the soles are showing so many nicks and holes after being on the boulders for less than an hour (when other shoes are fine after a lot more use on the same surfaces). I had the impression that the Instinct VS were known for their durability but that doesn't seem to be the case, so I might have wasted my money on them.

I'll update after I use them a few more times to see if the rate of degradation of the sole stays this high. By the way, any tips to prevent the main gash from getting bigger? Maybe sanding the rubber down around it?

Francesco Mannone wrote:

I had the impression that the Instinct VS were known for their durability but that doesn't seem to be the case, so I might have wasted my money on them.

Resoling with Trax rubber is inexpensive through Yosemite Bum.  Durability of the upper is far more important.

Francesco Mannone wrote:

With the boulders being in a cave, water dripping through the rock has rounded most edges and the rock tends to be slick. That's why I find it weird that the soles are showing so many nicks and holes after being on the boulders for less than an hour (when other shoes are fine after a lot more use on the same surfaces). I had the impression that the Instinct VS were known for their durability but that doesn't seem to be the case, so I might have wasted my money on them.

Yeah, that damage after 2 days seems super unusual unless there is some obvious circumstance causing it (like a crazy sharp hold). Otherwise, I've never seen anything like that after 2 days on a shoe, in 20 years of climbing and at least that many pairs of shoes. Especially seems odd with Vibram XS Edge, which is generally considered a hard and durable rubber. It would be less strange, perhaps, on one of the super-soft rubbers.  Maybe there was a pre-existing flaw in the rubber at that part of the sole?

I'd say trim and file down the damaged area to smooth it out, and hope that's the end of the issue. May end up fine and not actually impact the long-term lifespan or performance of the shoe.

Worst case scenario you can get a resole sooner than planned. Good news is that those Instincts are sturdy shoes and should take resoles well.

There's a lot to climbing rubber that I don't understand, but per conversations with Evolv, Trax SAS should be a durometer around 75, while Edge should be around 78. This means that XS Edge *should* be harder and more durable than Trax SAS, but there are perhaps other material qualities related to resilience that might affect this as well. Or you stepped on an especially sharp chip.

James L wrote:

There's a lot to climbing rubber that I don't understand, but per conversations with Evolv, Trax SAS should be a durometer around 75, while Edge should be around 78. This means that XS Edge *should* be harder and more durable than Trax SAS, but there are perhaps other material qualities related to resilience that might affect this as well. Or you stepped on an especially sharp chip.

If it was just one or two marks on the sole I'd agree with the possibility of it being a rogue sharp edge, but the left sole looks like a battlefield, pockmarked all over the place, and that's what worries me regarding the overall durability of the rubber.

Anyway I'm glad to find I'm not the only one that thinks it's weird that the rubber is wearing out this fast on a new shoe. Didn't know you could wait for rubber to get stronger with time, shame I can't wait that long to use them.

I've taken the shoes to the shop and after taking some photos of the soles they've told me they'll contact Scarpa on my behalf, but I'm not getting my hopes up. In the meantime I've tried to smooth somewhat the worst dents and we'll see how they look after another outdoor bouldering session in a couple of days. 

And yeah, an early resole should fix the problem, but first I'd like to get some use out of the rubber they came with!

Francesco Mannone wrote:

If it was just one or two marks on the sole I'd agree with the possibility of it being a rogue sharp edge, but the left sole looks like a battlefield, pockmarked all over the place, and that's what worries me regarding the overall durability of the rubber.

Anyway I'm glad to find I'm not the only one that thinks it's weird that the rubber is wearing out this fast on a new shoe. Didn't know you could wait for rubber to get stronger with time, shame I can't wait that long to use them.

I've taken the shoes to the shop and after taking some photos of the soles they've told me they'll contact Scarpa on my behalf, but I'm not getting my hopes up. In the meantime I've tried to smooth somewhat the worst dents and we'll see how they look after another outdoor bouldering session in a couple of days. 

And yeah, an early resole should fix the problem, but first I'd like to get some use out of the rubber they came with!

Yep. And I think the two interpretations here are just... a) could be a bad batch of XS Edge? or b) Trax SAS is actually quite a bit more durable. If you want a truly hard rubber you could look at Trax XE, or a Davos Rubber, or Neo Force, but people often complain these are a bit insensitive.

rock climbing wrote:

Making the rubber harder increases the durability of the same compound but that doesn’t necessary makes it more durable than other rubber on the market.

For example if you take xedge and make it harder it will increase the durability of xedge but it will not necessarily make it more durable than evol rubber.

You are right about resilience and pretty much hit the nail on the head. Vibram rubber has a lower resilience than SAS rubber. They achieved that at the cost of durability. From the photos it looks like it is lower than the average xedge rubber. 

Resilience is the rubbers ability to return to the original shape. 

There is another thread about tc pro durability that is pretty much the same issue.

 Do you want to guess how many thousands of shoes they made before they realized that the rubber is bad? 

Hmmm. Is there anywhere to read more on resilience in rubber science? UP lists their resilience for RS and RH (at 11% and 13%) but it's tough to understand this figure in relation to other numbers. Whereas with durometer, it's much easier to compare Shore A to Shore A reading. And yeah no idea on how many thousands of shoes might have been made from that batch. Odd though, as I tend to think of Vibram as being the leader in rubber science/quality.

Francesco Mannone wrote:

If it was just one or two marks on the sole I'd agree with the possibility of it being a rogue sharp edge, but the left sole looks like a battlefield, pockmarked all over the place, and that's what worries me regarding the overall durability of the rubber.

Anyway I'm glad to find I'm not the only one that thinks it's weird that the rubber is wearing out this fast on a new shoe. Didn't know you could wait for rubber to get stronger with time, shame I can't wait that long to use them.

I've taken the shoes to the shop and after taking some photos of the soles they've told me they'll contact Scarpa on my behalf, but I'm not getting my hopes up. In the meantime I've tried to smooth somewhat the worst dents and we'll see how they look after another outdoor bouldering session in a couple of days. 

And yeah, an early resole should fix the problem, but first I'd like to get some use out of the rubber they came with!

No reason not to run this rubber "into the ground" (to borrow a used car term), THEN get the resole.

rock climbing wrote:

Chewing gum has 0 resilience and rubber band has 100. The higher the resilience the more durable the rubber. 

Excellent reference points thanks. Do you know the resilience of Vibram's products by any chance? UP is the only I've seen that publishes these. I was able to find Vibram's durometer's from an old catalogue, but nothing else to my recollection.

rock climbing wrote:

I think it is about the same as the c4. I’m surprised unparalleled listed the resilience. Usually people don’t care about resilience too much, but it is important in climbing rubber.

The rubber Vibram uses is SBR that is affected by ozone  oxidized (shinny) the rubber and makes it  hard and less flexible over time. Properties will change over time.

 The problem is that SBR is not a rubber that is naturally good for an application like climbing rubber, but it is the cheapest rubber available. So they make try to make it work and sometimes they mess it up. Rubber making doesn’t have the highest tolerances. If they mess up the amount of sulfur you get a situation like this where the rubber is not durable.

I have a friend the used to resole shoes in the 1990’s he said that people returned shoes with rocks embedded in the rubber. When he contacted 5.10 they told him that they messed up the rubber and they will give his money back. That was the last time he resoled shoes for other people. According to him is too much trouble, and not with it. 

Hugely helpful, thanks! Do you know of any brands that don't use SBR rubber? Supposedly Acopa uses a rubber with a greater degree of natural components, and I wonder how these translate to material properties. Butora also used to advertise "the highest grade butyl rubber," but I've generally found their rubber to be a bit gummy and buttery at warm temps. I also wonder if their formula has changed slightly, as Black Diamond's options (that I think still use Butora's rubber) feel a bit firmer than Neofuse these days.

rock climbing wrote:

Chewing gum has 0 resilience and rubber band has 100. The higher the resilience the more durable the rubber. 

Given the viscoelastic quality of climbing rubber how is this measured and over what timescale?

Are all of Vibram's rubbers SBR or only the climbing rubbers?

Francesco Mannone wrote:

With the boulders being in a cave, water dripping through the rock has rounded most edges and the rock tends to be slick. That's why I find it weird that the soles are showing so many nicks and holes after being on the boulders for less than an hour (when other shoes are fine after a lot more use on the same surfaces). I had the impression that the Instinct VS were known for their durability but that doesn't seem to be the case, so I might have wasted my money on them.

I'll update after I use them a few more times to see if the rate of degradation of the sole stays this high. By the way, any tips to prevent the main gash from getting bigger? Maybe sanding the rubber down around it?

I sand the edges of my climbing shoes.  

If you want to pursue a resole  paid for by Scarpa or return you probably shouldn’t sand them.  The Scarpa rep who covers your local shop may know your cave and be able to give you a new pair based on your experience.  

Definitely sand off those torn edges to get more even friction when you edge.  The pockmarks in the middle of the sole are less of an issue

Update: 

This is how the rubber looks after having used the shoes one more time on the same boulders and having taken them to the crag for some sport climbing on limestone.

And again, for the sake of comparison, the sole of my Evolv Phantoms that have been used for many months now:

I don't know what to think, the jaggedness of the erosion marks is a bit worrying, haven't seen anything like it on mine or my friends climbing shoes before.

At this point, contact Scarpa and send pictures of the shoes and others. I would also send pictures of where you are climbing. 

I had a very similar experience with a pair of scarpa furias, it was very disappointing.