Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Why not use 2 ice axes for over 40 degrees angle snow?
|
As I do more snow routes I find I often end up using a second ice axe for anything over 40 degrees if the snow is starting to firm up. It's just more secure while adding mental comfort and really doesn't take any more energy in dagger mode. I use a longer Black Diamond Venom and a Petzl Sum'tec. The Venom is easy to grip the shaft right below the pick where the angle changes. The angle change acts as sort of a poor mans grip. The Sum'tec has a moveable handrest that I put a few inches below the pick. If you slip while gripping there you are already in self arrest mode, The reason for this post is that virtually all the experts I have seen over the years seem to really emphasize one ice axe. Mike Zawaski's book Snow Travel really emphasizes one tool as does Jeff Lowes old video Alpine Ice as I recall. Looking at recent You Tube videos about steep snow also emphasizes the use of one tool. Unless you have recent first hand information on the climb you never know if you will hit ice so it's not a bad idea to carry a second tool especially later in the year. I usually put on a very lightweight harness before I start a longer snow climb. For lower angle climbs I carry a lightweight Camp Corsa Nanotech on the harness in case I hit some ice. For steeper climbs I carry the Sum'tec on my harness. I also carry two very lightweight slings over my shoulder in case I need to need to rest off the ice axes. That has never happened but I could see wanting extra security desired while adjusting a crampon that had issues or if having cramps. Yes I can climb 60 degree or steeper snow with one axe but what is the point? To prove you are macho? In dagger mode I don't agree with the argument that one axe saves time or energy. I do a lot of peak bagging and don't like to fail or add unneeded risk. So on mountains with any potential of hitting snow I'll often bring microspikes and sometimes add the Camp Corsa Nanotech. Where I know I'll hit sustained snow I'll use the strategy above. I know all about weight minimization. On Liberty Ridge many years ago I only used one ice ax . Same on the U- notch couloir on North Palisade. But other routes with really long approaches such as Frostbite Ridge on Glacier Peak (39 miles) I used two tools where the guidebook specified one and was glad I did. When the snow is really soft and I am using the axe shaft in plunge mode I'll go a little steeper before I use the second tool. On really firm snow (snice) I'll generally swing overhand style like climbing waterfall ice and I always use two tools even on lower angles if there is significant exposure. These days I often solo snow as long as there are no crevasses. I don't like climbing steep snow roped unless I trust the anchor. I watched a guy die via ragdoll 30 foot somersaults for 1000 feet down Rainier and have seen other bodies airlifted out dead from Denali from falling off the low angle Denali Pass. Perhaps that influences my decisions. Snow can be dangerous and with two tools I can be very comfortable. The point of this post is don't be ashamed to use two ice axes on steeper snow slopes if it makes you more comfortable. Roped lower angle crevassed slopes might be the exception where the 2nd tool might be a detriment due to the added complication. Thoughts? |
|
IMHO the point of learning to climb steeper slopes with one tool is to become competent so that when one does run into a steeper / firmer slope than expected with a single tool it does not mean turning around or having to rappel. Or even when traveling with two tools and not yet to the business it does not require much forethought to get over a short step. Or worst case if one drops a tool and one is forced to climb with the one tool they can do so with some competence. Further, using a single tool will teach efficient foot work. The issue I see today is folk immediately going to two tools when they have not begun to master the basics. They may be more comfortable facing in but they are not any safer. |
|
I seem to recall seeing videos of Ueli Steck (RIP) climbing some of the 4,000 m peaks in the Alps that looked like fairly moderate snow routes with two tools rather than just a single ice axe. Of course, he was speed-climbing. I could imagine that on some steeper couloir routes when you are in dagger mode 90% of the way up the tools might come in handy. But ascent is one thing, descent another. I think the benefit of a single ice axe becomes more apparent then. At least in my experience, it is much easier to both plunge an ice axe in for control on the way down and self-arrest with one. |
|
do what you want |
|
Curt has the right answer.....it's simple. |
|
When I’m skiing sometimes I have to climb over 40 degrees but I try to pack as little as possible and usually just have one ice axe to save space. But if I’m on a climbing trip I’ll have two axes anyway and would probably use both. |
|
Allen Excellent points about one ice axe. Now lets say you've practiced with one ice axe, now have good footwork, and were climbing a firm 50 degree snow slope. Would you use one ice axe or two? Shawn I agree I would also usually only use one ice axe on the descent. But you are also often descending a different lower angle way or it will be later in the day with softer snow making it easier to plunge step. If I have to descend steep snow and it is feeling a little sketchy plunge stepping facing out I am not ashamed to face in and dagger my way down with two tools. I would place the tools where I had kicked the steps and it actually goes quite fast. When you dagger the way I do essentially you are in constant position to instantly self arrest even if it isn't the classic self arrest position. I have also been descending in cruise mode plunge stepping quickly with one ice axe when all of a sudden it turned icy and slightly dicey facing out so I turned around, grabbed another axe, and daggered down. This happened to me descending Mount Ritter on the SE glacier - I had gone up the North Face and was coming down a different way. I just read recently about some guy who had climbed a steep Colorado snow climb many times and fell and got hurt very bad on the snow descent. I don't know the particulars of that incident but that guy was obviously a good climber. What is more dangerous when it starts feeling sketchy - facing in and daggering with two tools or facing out and relying on a self arrest if you fall? I know speed is safety but daggering with two tools can actually go quite fast. I don't glissade other than boot ski, I've read too many accident reports and have some nice clothing I'd rather not beat up. I am certainly not an expert on snow or ice climbing but I have spent a lot of time in the mountains and studied/practiced all aspects of climbing enough to have no glaring weaknesses. I was just pointing out one area that I disagreed with what I perceived to be the accepted normal. |
|
With the arrival of ultralight tools, I now find myself usually carrying 2 tools a lot more frequently than just a few years ago. 2x Petzl Gullies are approximately the same weight of a single straight shaft axe. I can climb a lot more quickly and stably with 2 tools on a lot of moderate to steep terrain where I could certainly get by with only 1. Tools in the Gully's weight category are actually lighter than pickets, and can easily function as solid deadmans. So rather than bringing the backup picket, why not bring something that is lighter that I can actually climb with? Weights: Setup nobody would blink at #1: Setup nobody would blink at #2: *To be fair, a lot less people seem to have this mentality over the past couple years. |
|
Chris C wrote: Bingo - I think that is the real reason some people don't use two tools. I remember back in 2001 I was crack bouldering some easy cracks in Yosemite. I was taped up, wearing a helmet, and using Kaukulator climbing shoes. Definitely on first glance noob material. A bunch of shirtless punks working Ament Arete (sit start) trying to impress a hottie laughingly asked me to come over and try their project. I could tell they were f'ng with me. I went over and onsighted their project. I was 42 then - I'm 63 now and I still don't care if I look like a noob. |
|
Lou, I see mention of micro spikes but not crampons??? maybe I just missed it? those aluminum basket rigs are the best and a far better weight trade off than a 2nd ax. But heck if you don't mind carrying it then have at it. the only valid argument I can think of against two axes on snow is that its easier to self arrest with one ax. What it really boils down to is what works best for you. Certainly there is extra security in having a spare ax. |
|
Kids are soft these days! If you can't climb it with an alpenstock, you're not a real man! For real though, wtf do traditional axes even exist? If I'm on snow, I prob need my Nomics later anyways. If it's summer, bring the pair of Gullys for less weight than a single normal axe. Plus I like to imagine I'm a badass like Ueli, and there's nothing like high daggering up perfect neve to pay homage. |
Allen Sanderson wrote: Well, what happens if I think I only need one, but it turns out I drop it? Maybe you should recommend climbing with zero ice axes, that way I'd be prepared for that situation. I guess we also have the "third tool" camp... For the rest of us...umbilicals ftw. Not gonna die soloing cause I thought I'd never drop a tool... |
Lou Hibbard wrote: Depends ... which is really my point. Having multiple skills in one's quiver.
Alex Lowe like to tell folks to ice boulder - that is don't use any tools so to learn good foot work. |
|
The OP is 63 yrs old. I am assuming he has multiple skills ;) |
Nick Goldsmith wrote: I am sure of that, it is some of those 1/3 his age that do not. |
|
Nick Yes I own a variety of footwear material - in range of aggressiveness and weight: nanospikes (never used on a mountain), microspikes, aluminum crampons, steel crampons. I try to match the routes difficulty level with the tools I bring. But personally I always opt for safety/performance over weight reduction on the critical components of axe and crampons. I try to minimize weight on clothing, and other accessories. After carrying some huge racks on El Cap and long offwidths weight just doesn't bother me. And in actuality I am pretty lightweight in the mountains. I also used to regularly train with a 110 pound pack but quit after I messed up my shoulder. As to self arrest first to me it is much more important not to fall in the first place. I regularly practice self arrest with one axe however. |
|
Lou . My point being that for me in order of difficulty for summer mountains its starts with one ax, then one ax and aluminum crampons, then two axes and aluminum crampons. Winter mountains it starts with skis, then microspikes and ski poles, then steel crampons and ice tools. all of that figured out before I leave the truck. point also being that if you are bringing two tools but not the crampons you are doing it backwards. |
|
Self arrest. I respect the "don't fall" arguments, but I would ask if you have ever tried to get self arrest to work with an axe in each hand when you are sliding pretty quickly, on your firmer/steeper snow?? Can you really roll over and bury a shoulder onto an axe head/point to dig it in when you NEED to slow down?? I am skeptical you can do much with 1 hand when you really get going. |
tallguy wrote: If I’m using two tools over moderate snow terrain (I’m defining that by anything above a walk but below a tool swing), I’m usually going straight up and holding them in low dagger position. The likelihood for a slip to turn into an uncontrolled fall like that is pretty close to nil, aside for getting hit by something, the surface giving out, etc. If a meaningful fall were to happen, ditching one tool and doing a proper arrest would be the way to go. To your point, when I am just walking but a fall would be more serious, I’ll usually just rack one of my tools on my harness. |
|
Nick Agreed with slightly different order I start with microspikes (happily used in places on Everest 3 pass trek and Annapurna Circuit in Nepal with no axe for example), then microspikes with very light axe, etc. I guess I view footwork as more important than arm work . I would never use 2 axes without very good crampons. Even when my crampons are balling up some ascending in soft steep snow I'll often leave them on in case I hit an icy patch which has happened. It's a pain to put them on when on steep terrain. |
|
sounds like a perfectly normal progression. the only thing about your Op on using 2 axes then just boils down to personal preference and if you feel like carrying the extra weight. personally if its just steep snow I am comfortable with one good ax. |
