Economics of the climbing boom

I suspect bouldering only gyms are probably the most profitable given that it requires less staff, maybe more affordable insurance, and smaller spaces.

According to a former employee and friend of the owners, the gym in Golden cost about 6 million to build.  They had it paid off in 2 years. They make an F ton around here despite a few lean months during covid.  

Greg D wrote:

According to a former employee and friend of the owners, the gym in Golden cost about 6 million to build.  They had it paid off in 2 years. They make an F ton around here despite a few lean months during covid.  

Re covid, there's probably a difference in time scale between Colorado and here in urban-blue California. A lot of people here started staying home very early in the pandemic, were very covid-avoidant for a long time, and were very slow to start going back out, even after the vaccines became available. I still see people wearing masks while they drive alone in their cars. The gym I climb at was shut down completely for quite a while IIRC (maybe 6 or 12 mo?), and even when they opened back up, they required masks and vaccination for a long time. I know at least one antivaxxer who stopped going and may have never come back. The staff are still all required to wear masks. In the kids' programs, half the kids are still wearing masks.

Peter Beal wrote:

What it means is that there is not a climbing media outlet of record in the United States. Clickbait, listicles and legacy posts are all I see there anymore with Outside's feed having priority if you click on a Google search result for the "magazine"

I'm saving up for the inside track on Outside Coin. Deets here. outside.io/

This will end in tears.

If you haven’t yet, check out the Climbing Zine. Made by a climber out of Durango, it’s a phenomenal and engaging publication that comes out a few times a year. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

 Also means climbing education is far more accessible than ever before. 

like that's a good thing.

Rocrates wrote:

[…]

Buy Metolius, UnParallel, DMM. Some people still care about making great climbing products and not lining the pockets of the Chinese government. 

Oh, obviously some people care about making great climbing products, and are doing it, and you've identified some of the companies where I agree that those people work.

But are those people the same people that are making the bulk of the profits at those companies? I think not. If the information were public, I'd venture the least paid worker at each of those companies makes <10% what the highest paid worker. And I'd also venture that the least paid person is one of the people who makes great climbing products, and the most paid person isn't.

The companies you mentioned might have a bit better pay equality than most, but if you're trying to tell me the people at those companies who determine pay aren't paying themselves more for doing less, I call bullshit.

It's also telling that two of the best companies you could come up with are decided underdogs. Metolius is getting thrashed by BD, at least according to the gear I see at every crag I've been to. And UP was started because the execs at Adidas screwed a bunch of people over, remember? They make good shoes but they're new: give them time and they'll compromise--everyone does. I can't speak to DMM because it seems like they're not very popular in the US and I don't have much visibility into the UK climbing scene.

Totem is a worker-owned cooperative last I checked, so they're probably a better example than any of the ones you mentioned, but we'll see how things play out once other companies start copying their newly-out-of-patent design.

Ben Crowell wrote:

For the last week, they've had a team of three route-setters working full time. That's a lot of labor to pay for. Front desk employees and people leading children's programs make $16/hour, but they also have a considerable number of employees who are full time, do more specialized work, and I'm sure get pretty good pay plus health benefits.

Don't be so sure! Routesetting is often a minimum-wage job, because gyms can usually hire strong college kids who will do it because they love climbing, and if your primary income is from kids, one-time climbers and birthday parties, strong college kids set well enough to maintain that base. Some gyms do exist which pay their routesetters more, and it shows in the fact that the setting is typically much better at those gyms. But for that to be profitable, you need a large market (i.e. a city like NYC/SF with a big population, or a city like Chattanooga with a big climbing community). And in those cases, I've seen the climber owners sell the business to non-climbers, and the first question the new owner asks is why they're paying salary+benefits to routesetters, and the setting quickly goes to shit.

More gyms than you might think literally pay setters a (low) flat rate per-route or per-boulder, which results in crap even if the setter is really skilled. Even if you know how to set a really good problem, there's no point doing it if you can set a bad problem in half the time and then go climbing.

If a gym hosts comps within some national/international organization, they need certified routesetters, but they don't necessarily have them set for anything other than comps.

Ben Crowell wrote:

Re covid, there's probably a difference in time scale between Colorado and here in urban-blue California. A lot of people here started staying home very early in the pandemic, were very covid-avoidant for a long time, and were very slow to start going back out, even after the vaccines became available. I still see people wearing masks while they drive alone in their cars. The gym I climb at was shut down completely for quite a while IIRC (maybe 6 or 12 mo?), and even when they opened back up, they required masks and vaccination for a long time. I know at least one antivaxxer who stopped going and may have never come back. The staff are still all required to wear masks. In the kids' programs, half the kids are still wearing masks.

Sounds like y’all are really into science. 

Ben Crowell wrote:

 I don't know how much they pay every month for insurance and rent/mortgage, but I'm sure it's not cheap. I had a casual conversation last year with one of the managers, who was familiar with their finances, and although I didn't hear any numerical figures and my memory is hazy, my impression was that they just barely survived covid, IIRC partly because of government support.

Happy to take a stab at those figures, rough back of the napkin math below. (I work in commercial real estate). 

A gym is probably about 20,000 sq ft. They might pay $10 psf, more or less depending on location in rent. That's $200k a year. Toss in another $50-100k for Taxes, Ins, Common Area Maintenance, Utilties, etc.

How many members do you think said gym has? My gym is $70 a month, probably on the cheaper side for California. 

200 memberships * $70 a pop = $14k monthly, $168k annually. 

250 memberships * $70 a pop = $17.5k monthly, $210k annually. 

300 memberships * $70 a pop = $21k monthly, $252k annually. 

I still haven't factored in other streams of revenue - day passes, parties, classes, etc. And there are plenty of costs I haven't even accounted for yet - liability insurance ($$$), staffing, equipment that depreciates, licensing, I could go on. 

There is a climbing boom?

Dirtbag Beta wrote:

Who is profiting from the increased popularity of climbing? Is anyone getting filthy rich?

Who is losing? 

Who subsidizes the winners?

“There is growth, but growth can be malignant “

                  -Tradiban 

Alex and Tommy.

They should probably make another movie about those guys. 

So, boom implies bust. No, boom guarantees bust!

So, what will the Climbing Bust look like?

My take:

• The fad of indoor-only climbing fades into the rubbish bin of boredom and injury
• >50% of all new climbers drop out in the first 5-years.
• >80% of all new climbers drop out in the first 10-years.
• New. climbers, as a demographic group, steadily declines year over year.
• All the media companies switch to the X-games coverage.
• All the gear companies are sold to the employees as the profits just aren't there anymore.
• Climbingb gear mfg becomes grass roots once again.
• Grass grows over the gear caches at once popular sport climbs.
• Climbing reverts to the playground for the mal-adjusted, nerdy professor, goofy individualists, and assorted pervs.

Climbers ruined climbing.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

• The fad of indoor-only climbing fades into the rubbish bin of boredom and injury

It's hard to think "Bust" for indoor climbing, as it's now in the Olympics. That means youth programs, coaches, high school/college programs - a lot of money invested in those little phenoms. I'm amazed ABC Kids Climbing isn't yet a franchise. Indoor climbing is almost like a new branch of gymnastics. Gyms have consolidated just like ski areas have, so one bad season in a market doesn't ruin the whole business (and unlike ski areas, you're not at the will of weather)

I do think indoor climbing is going to further remove itself from outdoor climbing - you see this in how boulders are set and speed climbing as a thing. Maybe outdoor climbing will go bust? Is there real money in selling ropes and cams when compared to shoes and apparel?

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

My take:

• The fad of indoor-only climbing fades into the rubbish bin of boredom and injury

yeah, I'm gonna guess that's not a great take.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

So, what will the Climbing Bust look like?

My take:

• >50% of all new climbers drop out in the first 5-years.
• >80% of all new climbers drop out in the first 10-years.

I'd amend that to:

• >50% of all new climbers drop out in the first year.
• >80% of all new climbers drop out in the first 3-5 years.

I mean, curling is in the olympics. And if speed climbing is the best climbers can do to get in the olympics, well good god that sucks.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

I mean, curling is in the olympics. And if speed climbing is the best climbers can do to get in the olympics, well good god that sucks.

Are you forgetting bouldering and lead climbing?

This article is about Pickleball but pretty much mirrors how climbing has gone in the last 20 years. It even comes in audio format for all the dirtbags!

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/07/25/can-pickleball-save-america