Enchantments: A fine is a price?

10 years ago the Enchantments lottery allowed unlimited applications per person and received 2,300 total applications.  Last year the lottery only allowed one application per person and received 39,695 total applications; The total number of permits awarded that year was 2,444. I am no mathematician, but that is about a 6% chance of winning the Enchantment permit lottery.

The ranger station has suspended the walk up lottery indefinitely; So what are the options for the other 94% of people that want to camp in the Enchantments?  Each online application cost $6.00 and then $5.00 per person in the group. So a solo hiker is looking at a small price of $11.00, IF they win. At 6% odds, you would have to apply over 4 times (4 different years) to even achieve 50/50 odds.

The fine for illegally camping in the Enchantments is only $250.00 bucks. I feel like many people would happily pay the fine / price of $250.00 to stay overnight in the Enchantments. 

Just something to consider.

I would like to hear some people talk about all the trough hikers. Tons of people do it every day in peak season, and of those people a handful need to get rescued. The permit system 100% promotes people to do the 18 miles with 4,500 gain. I is my assumption that the majority of the through hikers have never done a trail comparable in difficulty. If you just look at any trail app that covers WA, there is no other trail of that difficulty with nearly the amount of traffic. 

I honestly think that there probably is no good solution moving forward. It has become so popular that it will become increasingly harder to obtain permits for overnight use, although at this point the majority of the impact (litter, trail erosion, human waste, etc) is likely from day hikers and not overnight users. Two years ago I talked to a ranger at the Colchuck lake after descending from a day at CBR and he informed me that he had counted almost one thousand people that had gotten to the lake that day (through-hikers, over-nighters and people coming to the lake), it likely has gotten more popular since then. We all want to recreate in a pretty area and the enchantments has become a victim of its own success, I don't think there is any way to put the genie back in the bottle. I hate to say it but more regulations going forward are probably a reality. For all the angst around the enchantments, it does have a gravity well effect on the area which leaves the other trail systems in very close vicinity nearly empty (great for running, but the climbing is not there like there is in the enchantment zone).

Shaun Johnson wrote:

I would like to hear some people talk about all the trough hikers. Tons of people do it every day in peak season, and of those people a handful need to get rescued. The permit system 100% promotes people to do the 18 miles with 4,500 gain. I is my assumption that the majority of the trough hikers have never done a trail comparable in difficulty. If you just look at any trail app that covers WA, there is no other trail of that difficulty with nearly the amount of traffic. 

Maybe they should try to not hike in troughs?

Colchuck lake should be considered a sacrificial fly trap.   Maybe with time the social media incentive behind a lot of increased wilderness visitation will wane.

my understanding is that you have about a 2% chance of getting a core permit.  If you really need to camp up there and your willing to get hostile and agro when a ranger asks you to turn around maybe you’re onto something.

Shaun Johnson wrote:

The fine for illegally camping in the Enchantments is only $250.00 bucks. I feel like many people would happily pay the fine / price of $250.00 to stay overnight in the Enchantments. 

Just something to consider.

For anybody considering that it's a $250 skip-the-line fee, the rangers will force you to leave if you get caught.  

For whatever it's worth, I think the permit systems are BS and far too restrictive.

Chris C wrote:

For anybody considering that it's a $250 skip-the-line fee, the rangers will force you to leave if you get caught.  

For whatever it's worth, I think the permit systems are BS and far too restrictive.

Just like with bears, you don't need to outrun the ranger, you just need to outrun the slower hikers.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

What does 'force you to leave' mean?

What happens if you don't pay the fine?

They will basically just sit there and pester you until you leave. Been there, good way to ruin a nice weather window. (Also, I believe some rangers receive the designation of law enforcement officers and can arrest people for non compliance…) 

I’d assume not paying a fine would be similar to not paying any other gov fine/ticket. Collections, etc. 

The North Cascades are a big place, the real question is why fight the Rangers and the crowds?  

Canyonlife2020 wrote:

The North Cascades are a big place, the real question is why fight the Rangers and the crowds?  

How else does a Washingtonian become an influencer on Instagram? It is my understanding that they MUST take the exact same pictures in the exact same locations as the people who influenced them. Otherwise they might be branded as an outlier and the thing we hate the most is people doing their own thing.

Shaun Johnson wrote:

Last year the lottery only allowed one application per person and received 39,695 total applications;  Each online application cost $6.00.

Here is what people should be pissed about. The lottery brings $250,000. That money does not go to Forest Service/NPS/BLM but to Booz Allen Hamilton under contract to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, and Recreation One Stop participating agencies.

That is just for the Enchantments, now think about all of the other lotteries for river permits, etc, etc.

It's completely legal to camp outside the enchantments zone and do day hikes to certain areas. It's just takes a little more map work and advanced planning. 

By far the easiest answer to this problem would be permanently leaving the gate closed at the bottom of 8 mile road. Adding that extra 4 miles each way should cut down the crowds a bit.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Here is what people should be pissed about. The lottery brings $250,000. That money does not go to Forest Service/NPS/BLM but to Booz Allen Hamilton under contract to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, and Recreation One Stop participating agencies.

That is just for the Enchantments, now think about all of the other lotteries for river permits, etc, etc.

Considering how the Enchantments are the source of the money,  it is more than a little fucked up that a quarter of a million dollar does not go to the source location.

Maybe the toilets would not have a shit pyramid coming out of the top of them? Maybe the 8 mile road would not rattle your teeth out as you drive it? Maybe more camping in the icicle?

No solutions... but some ideas to make it better:

1) Weight the lottery so that the longer you're in it (each year) without winning, the better your chances are. This is how the Grand Canyon river permit lottery works.

2) Resume the in-person walk-up permit process. They went online for Covid and are still using that as an excuse to cut down the labor for in-person permits, but having both the lottery AND the walk-up permits online not only gives Booz Allen more money, but it also favors those with computer access (or bots) and shuns those that are willing to show up and wait at the ranger station early in the morning or the night before. This process had been a rite of passage for concert-goers, backcountry enthusiasts, and Camp 4 visitors for decades and as much of a pain as it is for everyone it definitely rewards the most deserving.

3) Limit permits to parties of one or two. This will allow more groups to enter the backcountry. Nobody NEEDS to be in the Enchantments as a group of eight... or even four... and in some ways it is antithetical to the place IMO.

4) Create separate "bivy" permits for climbers. Similar to what is done in RMNP/the Diamond. Specific sites, not just access to the entirety of a "zone". For example, one or two bivy sites at the base of each of Prusik, CBR, Dragontail/Asgard Pass, Stuart, etc. This would allow a relatively small number of options for a relatively small number of climbers who usually (or should) use the backcountry a little differently than other users. No, our shit doesn't stink any less, but we're willing to sleep on durable surfaces, without tents, well away from water, well out of sight of other users, and are goal oriented when we visit vs just wandering all over the place. I suspect these would actually go under utilized depending on how many bivy sites are authorized.

I like the Dean Potter mentality, live free, I’ll do what I want. The rest is water under the bridge & I’ll deal w/ it when it happens.

Yet, we are doomed. Realize that, move forward and all is well. 

I am fully in favor of making a toll gate at the bottom of the Icicle. I have thought about this before over the years. What if the icicle became a state park and just like other state parks you must pay to get in? This way the boulderers would help finically support the climbing areas they are all shitting in. If they can afford a 6 dollar beer and a 10 dollar bratwurst down in town they can fork out a little money for the climbing scene. 

Do we all agree that this area is going to become much more busy if we do not change something? The Icicle and Stuart Range are beautiful areas and they must be protected.

Stop maintaining FS7601? Cheap and easy

There's little precedent for making the entire Icicle a state park, it's quite large, and the result would be Discover pass signs at every parking area which most people have already, and nowhere near enough enforcement to keep accountability (The 4 ollallie trailheads get ticketed about 2 out of every 7 days, a good thing cause fuck parking tickets.) Also, the boulderers would be pissed as hell and they have way more and louder mouths than alpine climbers do, that wouldn't last.

What toll roads are there except for national parks? And only in Rainier, not NCNP or the Olympics. And the enchantments becoming a NP isndefjitely undesirable, imagine a road to Colchuck and huge lodges at Snow Creek and 3 times the traffic. 

I don't believe the forest service has the authority to install a toll gate for so much land. 

If there was a toll gate, the access fund would post about how access is being revoked in leavenworth. They would get a flood of donations, “attempt” to preserve access despite not clearly doing much.

As a moderate person, I’m curious if hyper environmentalism will occur in the near future. I can imagine a political contingent believing that the wilderness is exclusively for tribal people and animals and everyone else should stay in the city to preserve this land. They will argue vr is good enough and by driving to the place, you are emitting too much carbon. You see this already occurring in the facebook groups for the Seattle/Squamish area. So I am curious if there will be a shift away from the outdoors. After all, it is really easy to say you are protecting nature by watching 8 hours of netflix a day.

I kinda like how Mt. Lemon handles busy days (generally when it snows).  The sheriff closes the road when the mountain gets full (how ever they determine that) and then lets one car in when one car leaves.  The line of cars waiting to go up the mountain gets to be miles long.  As a cyclist I get to ride right on by.  :) As a climber I have to predict such days and get going early.