Petzl Spirit quickdraws rotating on bolts
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I have multiple types of quickdraws and climb with many partners who have different types of draws. One thing I've noticed is that when Spirits are hanging on the bolts the bolt carabiner tends to turn and rotate either when the climber is being lowered or when the rope is being pulled for the next climber. These means that when you're going up for your redpoint burn you have to adjust the carabiner so that it sits correctly on the bolt again, sometimes mid crux. I know this can happen with any quickdraw, but I've noticed it happens with Spirits ALL THE TIME. I've compared them side by side with other quickdraws and I can't find anything unique to the Spirit that would cause this to happen. The bolt side opening on the dogbones are smaller than most other dogbones so you would think it would happen less. Anybody else notice this? Any idea why? |
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Are you sure it’s not the hanger shape or orientation that causes the rotation |
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Cheiftan Mews wrote: A smaller end on the dogbone would actually make it more likely to rotate, as there is less for the different bends on the carabiner to negotiate and slide through. |
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I actually just noticed this issue this weekend too. I just replaced all my old djinn dogbones with the new express ones, and I had the same issues the OP describes. |
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If you mean that it rotates to be completely upside down this is perfectly fine, just leave it rotated. |
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DrRockso RRG wrote: I've noticed with my Black Diamond draws that when it happens the carabiner flips upside down and it's no problem. With the Spirits I find them horizontal pretty frequently. I'm comparing the bolt carabiners from the two right now and they are almost identical in shape and size. On further thought, I'm guessing it has to do with the smaller dogbone opening or end width and the lighter weight of the carabiner. |
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I had one rotate on me. I didn’t notice it. I fell and cross loaded the biner and it bent completely open. My belayer and I didn’t catch it until I climbed up through the crux and clipped the next bolt only to hear the bent draw Come out of the bolt and slide down the rope. |
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DrRockso RRG wrote: If it’s rotating like this, halfway through the rotation it would be cross loaded and that doesn’t seem fine. The OP said it was just during lowers or when pulling rope, but if it happens when climbing above it, yikes! |
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Cheiftan Mews wrote: Do you mean the width of the webbing is smaller or the diameter of the sewn loop is smaller. |
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Emilio Sosa wrote: I was originally referring to the opening on the dogbone but now I see that the width of the opening part is slightly more narrow than my other draws (maybe 2-3mm?) This would def make it easier for the dogbone to maneuver the bends on the carabiner. |
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I too had this problem, fully horizontal cross-loaded top biners after you pull, maybe on every other pitch. They also would do this weird twisting after loading in odd directions. Often so much so that on your next go you'd get to the quickdraw and the gate would be facing the rock or straight out. Neither are a biggie unless its the crux draw and you're redlining. Still, them having a mind of their own made me sell off my set of spirits. Best draw ever? Naw, just the first to be really ubiquitous and grab-able |
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DrRockso RRG wrote: This. Complete rotation of the bolt side carabiner happens with a lot of draws, especially with wider tapes, and it's not a problem. When I last climbed on them, I got the impression that the new spirit tapes are not wide enough or oddly shaped at the bolt side carabiner, preventing free movement of the tape and making cross-loading or unclipping more likely. The old spirits didn't have this problem and had a wider bolt side opening. |
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Have the spirits changed? I have ones that are probably 7 years old and this has literally never happened to me. |
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I just bought 10 new spirits… Who should I send to for testing? |
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I have a bunch of old-style spirits, and haven't noticed this problem that much. I've replaced the rope-side carabiner with edelrid bulletproof carabiners, so maybe the slight extra weight prevents this weird cross-loading problem? hard to say. that or the loop in the dogbone is wore out enough that it lets rock-side carabiner fall into not being cross-loaded. though my take after using Spirits for a while is that if you're going to buy a high-end draw in the year of our lord 2022, buy Edelrid bulletproofs. they're only like $6 more per draw than a DMM alphasport (admittedly like $13 more than a spirit), and they will make your ropes last so much longer if you whip on them all the time because of the steel part that doesn't grind away into your rope like an aluminum carabiner does. replacing the rope side carabiner with a bent-gate bulletproof carabiner does work pretty well, the little rubber basket fits the bulletproof carabiner cross-section just fine and keeps the carabiner in place. I think this is a bit cheaper than straight up buying a bulletproof QD set. |
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2015 (left) spirit express next to 2021 (right). The 2021 looks like a larger hole for the bolt carabiner. The material though feels quite a bit different. This may likely be due to years of use on the 2015 draw, but the 2021 material feels like a thicker, looser weave (kinda floppy), while the 2015 material is fairly rigid and keeps its form when shaped. |
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It has been brought to my attention that the carabiner corner below the gate is much more tapered on spirits than on other draws. The taper allows the carabiner to turn very easily. That along with a slightly more narrow width dogbone end is the reason this is happening. Bummed I just bought 16 of these. |
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Adam bloc wrote: What kind of draws do you use now? |
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Webfoot wrote: Looks like you could achieve the same thing as this Grivel by adding a rubber stopper (petzl string) to the bolt side of the draw. I always thought we wanted the sling on the bolt side to pivot on the biner, but if it’s rotating to a cross load position, might be better to just have it not rotate at all. |
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Matty T wrote: IMO this is the issue. I heard several complaints when PETZL released the then-new light grey EXPRESS pictured on the left that they were too stiff and the hole too small thus causing this issue. The current style seemed to be an attempt to fix it making the hole bigger and the material more flexible, but it kinda made it worse (I theorize the new softer material “grabs” the carabiner more). I try to hang my draws so the gates of the bolt-end ‘biners face away from my direction of travel (ie when the draw is pulled to the side the spine is against the rock). This usually eliminates the problem but it still sometimes happens. Happens with any draw to be honest. I guess rock climbing is dangerous?? |