1 Minute Install: Removable Bolt

My son helped me make a quick video installing a 3/8 Titan concrete screw on a 1/2 hanger.  Am testing this and feel it’s a very safe & efficient way to install temporary anchors for route development, rescue, or maintenance.  Installing the bolt is fast & easy, feels bomber strong.   When done one can either drill out to 1/2” and install a bolt or patch with a bit of mortar and fine gravel from the base.  Thoughts? 

Pete S wrote:

My son helped me make a quick video installing a 3/8 Titan concrete screw on a 1/2 hanger.  Am testing this and feel it’s a very safe & efficient way to install temporary anchors for route development, rescue, or maintenance.  Installing the bolt is fast & easy, feels bomber strong.   When done one can either drill out to 1/2” and install a bolt or patch with a bit of mortar and fine gravel from the base.  Thoughts? 

This is a good video.  Fast and simple. 

There is another thread on these bolts: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116802147/simpson-titen-hd

My thoughts are: 

since the threads are what provide grip, why not use the longer 6" bolts?  They dont take much more time to install (still way faster than pretty much any other bolt)

Also, note that you can use 3/8 or 10mm hangers with 3/8 titens for some brands of hanger.  I've used Raumer 10mm hangers and the new fixe 3/8 hangers, you just screw the hanger on my hand prior to install.  The old fixe 3/8 hangers are too thick to work with 3/8 titens

I am seriously considering using those for an aid ladder to get up an otherwise unprotectable pinnacle. 

Ive been using this setup for several years and they are great. For anyone looking for them they are spelled Titen, not Titan.

I've played with these when Bobby first got some. I think Ryan and him have a pull video on How Not 2, if I remember right.

They use them while testing these hangers (mentioned at about the 7:30 mark.)

It would be cool to see these tested in various stone, including Sandstone.

Good quick video. Thanks.

My first thought when you started drilling was, "hmm, that hole should be more perpendicular to the rock." My second thought was, "wow!, a power drill is a lot lot lot easier than a Petzl Rocpec and hammer, sigh."

Pete S wrote:

My son helped me make a quick video installing a 3/8 Titan concrete screw on a 1/2 hanger.  Am testing this and feel it’s a very safe & efficient way to install temporary anchors for route development, rescue, or maintenance.  Installing the bolt is fast & easy, feels bomber strong.   When done one can either drill out to 1/2” and install a bolt or patch with a bit of mortar and fine gravel from the base.  Thoughts? 

If you are going to use the hole for a half inch glue in or sleeve bolt later,  you might as well drill 1/2" to begin with and use a 1/2" Titen. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

If you are going to use the hole for a half inch glue in or sleeve bolt later,  you might as well drill 1/2" to begin with and use a 1/2" Titen. 

I'd err on the side of caution. I think that's why people are going from 3/8 up to 1/2 in the first place, in that the threads are leaving the hole's wall in a questionable state.

ETA

Gluein might be fine. Sleeve or wedge, however? Not sure about that.

Thanks for the input and kind words, my son is learning video editing.  3” screws feel plenty strong and will be easier to pack up to the project. The rock in the video is granite/gneiss using an old 2 point SDS+ bit.  I’ve got several new 4 point SDS bits that will drill a tighter - more uniform hole.  I installed and removed the bolt 6 times to check screw thread durability - no significant/noticeable damage but the drilled hole started to degrade.  The thread damage to the hole requires it to be drilled out to 1/2”.  We’ll be installing 1/2x5-1/2 SS wedge anchors on Fixe SS double ring alpines for the permanent stations.  

This morning we made a follow-up video on removal and patching. You can see after the 1st turn, the concrete screw comes out easily. This is from the install/removal testing.

If you have any patching tips or tricks, it would be appreciated. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

If you are going to use the hole for a half inch glue in or sleeve bolt later,  you might as well drill 1/2" to begin with and use a 1/2" Titen. 

When have you ever been able to use the same temp bolt hole for your actual bolt hole? I've never once. Temp bolts are used when you can't get anything else in. If you truly need it for a temp placement, you won't be able to use it as a bolt hole. Also, definitely do not use these holes for sleeve bolts ever. This is terrible advice, and the fact that you're giving it is very troubling. The bolts create a groove on the interior of the hole and would be very problematic for a mechanical bolt. 

Ive been using 1/4"x4" Titen with 3/8th hangers for the last year, and I've only broken 1, which happened when tightening it down.  I've used them in completely horizontal roofs too and they were fine.  3/8th's are more bomber, but they leave a bigger hole.

As far as sandstone goes, as long as you don't feel the bolt strip the hole, then it will hold. If you crank it down and you feel it strip, you need to find a better spot. Bullet sandstone and you're fine, western sandstone would be really questionable unless you get 6 or 8" long versions, but who knows out there. 

As for patching, just fill the hole with epoxy, flatten it perfectly, then throw rock dust on the top, like actually throw. Don't touch it once it's flat. Nothing special about that process.

Matthew,

Your lack of understanding of development and the mechanics involved in expansion anchors is what's troubling. The scoring created by a screw anchor shouldn't have any effect on the holding power of an expansion anchor, if you're hole is falling apart on the other hand, it's probably wise to find a better piece of rock for a bolt placement rather than expanding a hole in crap rock.

The OP mentioned potentially using some of the temporary hole as permanent bolt placements, it may be hard to envision why someone might do something like this if your experience is limited to rap bolting single pitch sports climbs. Western sandstone like that in Red Rocks can be quite good and harder in places than RRG for example. 

OP, 

Without knowing exactly where you plan on bolting, is there a reason you plan on using 5 1/2" inch anchors, that length is quite overkill in good granite.

Pete S wrote:

Thanks for the input and kind words, my son is learning video editing.  3” screws feel plenty strong and will be easier to pack up to the project. The rock in the video is granite/gneiss using an old 2 point SDS+ bit.  I’ve got several new 4 point SDS bits that will drill a tighter - more uniform hole.  I installed and removed the bolt 6 times to check screw thread durability - no significant/noticeable damage but the drilled hole started to degrade.  The thread damage to the hole requires it to be drilled out to 1/2”.  We’ll be installing 1/2x5-1/2 SS wedge anchors on Fixe SS double ring alpines for the permanent stations.  

This morning we made a follow-up video on removal and patching. You can see after the 1st turn, the concrete screw comes out easily. This is from the install/removal testing.

If you have any patching tips or tricks, it would be appreciated. 

Good removal and patching video as well!  I'm digging the short and simple approach.

I also made a video which I posted a few months ago on the other thread, showing 3/8 x 6" 304ss: https://youtu.be/3vwndZnnWk8

Max torque on the longer titen bolts is actually like, 50 ft lbs, but you're not supposed to exceed 25 ft lbs with the < 2.5" titens (in concrete).  There's not really a minimum recommended torque but I aim for ~25 ft lbs.. I doubt you'd strip 6" Titens in almost any climbable rock.

Here's another short video of me reusing the hole from the first video with a 6" fixe glue in (drilled out with 12mm drill bit): https://youtu.be/6zN1ieQ282s

The video also shows me "throwing" limestone powdery sand onto the epoxy as Jaggers mentioned.  I think throwing with even more force than shown in this video would be better, since not all the powder stuck (as you can see in the final pictures at the end of the video). But I was happy with the end result.

@DrRockso what hanger do you use with a 1/2" Titen?  I've only ever bought the 3/8" so I've never experimented with 1/2".  

Reusing a 1/2" titen hole with a glue in would be OK (probably even better than a regular 1/2" hole) but I wouldn't use it for a sleeve bolt.

Also the OD of the threads on a 3/8" titen is pretty much exactly 12mm, so upsizing the hole to 1/2" for reuse should be fine

Erik Kloeker wrote:

Matthew,

Your lack of understanding of development and the mechanics involved in expansion anchors is what's troubling. The scoring created by a screw anchor shouldn't have any effect on the holding power of an expansion anchor, if you're hole is falling apart on the other hand, it's probably wise to find a better piece of rock for a bolt placement rather than expanding a hole in crap rock.

No. No one should be using Non Glue ins in old Titen holes, unless it is super bullet rock like Yosemite, etc. Even then I'd like to see tests done before I'd consider doing it. If you're doing this in sandstone then I feel for anyone climbing those in the future. 

The OP mentioned potentially using some of the temporary hole as permanent bolt placements, it may be hard to envision why someone might do something like this if your experience is limited to rap bolting single pitch sports climbs. Western sandstone like that in Red Rocks can be quite good and harder in places than RRG for example. 

If you're using temp bolts on lead and replacing them later on rappel, then yeah, whatever, but there's never a case where you'd actually need a temp placement AND would be able to use that hole for your actual bolt, except for replacing your temp lead placements. If you could do that, then you wouldn't actually need the temp bolt to begin with. Please enlighten me with a mythical hook placement story from your vast and endless experience. 

Calling Ryan and Bobby to test old Titen HD holes with mechanical bolts in non granite.

Look forward to seeing the test results.  Lmk when they come in   

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Look forward to seeing the test results.  Lmk when they come in   

Shows exactly why you shouldn't be promoting something that is likely very dangerous, and you know nothing about.

It makes total sense to use the 1/2 screw in bolts for " temporary protection bolts" when ground up climbing. Then you dont need the drill when they are upgraded to glue ins. The draw back is the bolts themselves are quite heavy.

I could also see that you might use them if you are unsure of the best location  of a protection bolt and want a strong but easy to relocate solution.

I have plated hangers with 1/2 holes and found I had to ream them a bit.  

For "work bolts" I found Tapcon makes a 5/16 bolt that is a good compromise between strength and easy patching. I havent had much luck with the smaller screw ins.

timothy fisher wrote:

It makes total sense to use the 1/2 screw in bolts for " temporary protection bolts" when ground up climbing. Then you dont need the drill when they are upgraded to glue ins. The draw back is the bolts themselves are quite heavy

Is anyone currently making a glue in which takes a 3/8 or 10mm hole, ideally in 6" or 150mm?

Jim Day wrote:

Is anyone currently making a glue in which takes a 3/8 or 10mm hole, ideally in 6" or 150mm?

Doubt it. The round stock would be tiny and likely wouldnt meet euro standards of 25kn min. 6mm stock is used for 1/2in, so you can imagine how small 3/8 would be. Plus, a smaller stock would be harder on carabiners and quicklinks.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

Doubt it. The round stock would be tiny and likely wouldnt meet euro standards of 25kn min. 6mm stock is used for 1/2in, so you can imagine how small 3/8 would be. Plus, a smaller stock would be harder on carabiners and quicklinks.

I think a fixe hely or 8 mm SLB could work, especially since a 3/8 concrete screw hole would be somewhere between 3/8-in and 12 mm after brushing and cleaning, closer to 10 or 11 mm in soft rock. But I'm not seeing them long enough for my rock type.

Jim Day wrote:

Is anyone currently making a glue in which takes a 3/8 or 10mm hole, ideally in 6" or 150mm?

The Bolt - products 8mm SLB is good for rock that is suitible for a 3/8 hole. If the rock is good enough for 3/8 i cant imagine the need for more than 100mm length. Be prepared for tubing tricks to get the glue in the bottom of the hole!