Max hangs vs repeaters. Yet again.

I’m not asking what is the “best” hangboard protocol. Rather, I’m curious if anyone else had the same experience as I have.

My first exposure to hangboard was via RCTM-type repeaters, 10+ years ago. You do dedicated 4 weeks of hangboard-only workout every 3 days, with just a bit of easy ARC-type climbing during these 4 weeks. There are variations of their beginner-int-advanced protocols, but Basically, pick 6-8 different grips (pockets, pinches, crimps, etc), and do 7on/3 off repeaters with weights added or subtracted, as needed per hold to get to failure at the end of 6-7 sets. Rest 3min between sets, depending on the protocol you might be hanging on the same grip for mire then one set, increasing weight/decreasing reps in later sets. If you complete the set on a specific hold, you increase the weights in that hold next time. The hanging takes over an hour hour to do, easily 1.5 hrs, if you include warming up.

I have done multiple cycles of RCTM repeaters, and followed their periodisation program in general, usually 2 cycles per year for maybe 3-4 years, and had seen substantial improvement in my finger strength.

Then I had shoulder surgery, and didn’t do any hangboard training for couple years after the surgery. 

When I started doing hangboard training again in ~2019, the consensus has shifted to “max hangs are more efficient/effective”. Since 2019, I’ve been doing max hangs as part of either Power Company or Lattice 12-week training plans. Both plans incorporate max hangs into the bouldering workout days, and you do, at most, 10 min of max hangs (at most 10 hangs) on just one grip type. Lattice 20mm edge in half-crimp position. You progress by increasing the number of hangs per session, from 6 to 10, over the course of the weeks, and increasing the weight from ~85% of max that you measure before the start of the cycle to ~95% of that max. But you never hang to failure. Some plans also have 4 weeks of min edge hangs after 8 weeks of max hangs.

I have now followed these plans for 3 years (also 2 cycles per year). I see some effects of training overall, mostly in terms of improved power, and I do think the approach overall is something I would continue using.

but I do NOT see the improvement in finger strength. In fact, I would say that I’m worse on crimps now than I was 10 years ago.

Basically, I don’t feel like the max hangs on 20 mm edge are doing anything for me. I’ve been trying to be patient, telling myself that it takes time, that I would see gains over larger time frame, multiple cycles, etc. But it’s been multiple cycles by now over the past 3 years.  

Anyone else has had the same experience? If yes, Have you made any changes?

I would start another training cycle in preparation for the fall season sometime in July, and I’m wondering if I should break the trend and go back to doing 4 weeks of the repeaters before I get into limit bouldering/strength and power stage of the training cycle. The research doesn’t seem to think that it would be beneficial. But maybe the type of climbing I do, or something about my physiology needs a different approach?

I just did a lattice program and had finger strength improvement from the max hang protocols. Funny part is, I measure wrong on my board and was using an 11 mm edge. That size translated really well to the stuff I was trying to do. If you’re using lots of small holds then train for it I would guess, either on purpose or by accident. 

you NEVER increase the number of hangs. you ALWAYS increase the amount of weight. you start with 1 lb. if you can hang 7s you move to 2 lbs. you increase until you find your max and do 3..5 reps, at maximum. you never do more, because if it really is your max, you won't be able to do more. your regiment is likely for rope climbing if you're doing arc training. but even that is outdated, none of the serious climbers are doing arc or 4x4s anymore. it seems to be that the latest research suggest that 80%..100% is the best yield. your method is retreading what is already known: bouldering improves rope climbing, rope climbing doesn't improve bouldering. this is because pushing the limit of weight basically makes you stronger. for rope climbing, every hold is much easier, you can climb harder as a result. the opposite is untrue - rope climbing builds great endurance. but all the endurance at 40% body weight won't translate to a single move a 50% body weight, and that's kind of why there's been such a focus on bouldering training as the quintessential regiment.

unless you aren't deloading correctly. if your performance starts to decline (generally 4..6 weeks) then you need to take a week off to deload your fingers. that is, do not climb at all, your body has dug a physical exertion debt you need to pay off. if you see no decline, then you aren't committing seriously to the max hangs.

you mention 'limit bouldering' which makes me think you want to boulder. campus board is also a critical component of bouldering. your campus board needs to line up with your v grade. for example, at v5 the prescribed campus board is 1-3-5. this is grade specific, for example, 146 is ~v6, so you'd need to list your v grade and look up where it falls. this is important because you need to understand what needs work. for example, if you can do 147 already, campus board is a waste of time. work on your finger strength instead. if your finger strength is 60% (v6) and you can do 146 but you can't do any v6, then you need to start looking at other stuff. make sure your shoulders are rated for v6 (archer pullups), make sure your core (L sits) are at the timing intervals required for v6.

for example, being stuck at v13 for 3 years is pretty common, breaking past that takes a large amount of commitment. being stuck at v0 for 3 years is incredibly slow. you should list what grade you are and what grade you want to get to in order to really delve where your weaknesses are. also, look up the test for your vgrade and see if it makes sense. if you claim to be v4, you should be able to hang 40% of your body weight on one arm on 20 mm. if this isn't true, report your tested v grade.

James W wrote:

“if you claim to be v4, you should be able to hang 40% of your body weight on one arm on 20 mm.” - to be clear, you certainly mean removing 60% BW with a pully.

Wait, are you saying that a V4 climber who weighs 150 lbs should be able to one arm hang on a 20mm edge with 60 lbs added?  That sounds world class, not V4. 

I am always fascinated by Aweffwefs training posts.

He/she is so dogmatic, posting what purports to be the way to train.

As if he/she has access to some secret trove of training knowledge.

Entertainingly iconoclastic, yet so far out that it can be hard to take such advice seriously.

But there remains the nagging suspicion that Awef really does know the secrets... 

OP, probably worth working in person with an actual coach who knows how to do this kind of thing. Virtually every time I have introduced people (actual experienced climbers with training backgrounds) to actual max hang protocols in person they had no idea how to go about doing them correctly. 

Mark, Aweff's central point about max hangs is pretty valid, at least in the power and power endurance aspects. You need such a level of max strength that banging out say 10 reps at 75% of max will get you the boulder or crux of a route. It's what I emphasize in all my training recommendations now. Hard climbing is hard and getting past previous max strength levels is really important for improvement. One of things many miss about the RCTM repeaters is that they often involve substantial amounts of weight often on brutal holds. You should be fighting for the final reps in the set with next to no margin left

Aweffwef Fewfae wrote:

you NEVER increase the number of hangs. you ALWAYS increase the amount of weight. you start with 1 lb. if you can hang 7s you move to 2 lbs. you increase until you find your max and do 3..5 reps, at maximum. you never do more, because if it really is your max, you won't be able to do more.

The plans designed by coaches who train climbers for living seem to disagree with your NEVER/ALWAYS.

for example, Power company 5.13 plan has you start Max hangs at 6x(7on/53off), increase the hangs by 1 per week for 3 weeks, then deload for a week, and do another cycle of max hangs starting at 8x(7on/53off), and increasing to 10 Max hangs per session over the following 3 weeks, up to 10 max hangs, then deload. You are supposed to increase weight “as able”. In the last 4 weeks the program switched to min edge.

Lattice plan has you max hanging at 85% of your measured max for 4 weeks, Also increasing the number of hangs per session, then go to 90% of max for 4 weeks, then go to 95% of max weight for 4 weeks.

I’m entirely willing to try only increasing weight, and doing fewer hangs. After all, as I said, I don’t feel that what I’m doing right now is working particularly well for me. Just pointing out that most well-respected coaches seem to suggest otherwise.

your regiment is likely for rope climbing if you're doing arc training. but even that is outdated, none of the serious climbers are doing arc or 4x4s anymore. it seems to be that the latest research suggest that 80%..100% is the best yield. your method is retreading what is already known: bouldering improves rope climbing, rope climbing doesn't improve bouldering. this is because pushing the limit of weight basically makes you stronger. for rope climbing, every hold is much easier, you can climb harder as a result. the opposite is untrue - rope climbing builds great endurance. but all the endurance at 40% body weight won't translate to a single move a 50% body weight, and that's kind of why there's been such a focus on bouldering training as the quintessential regiment.

It may not have been clear from my post, but I am NOT doing much (any) ARCing at all, and have not done it for years. I only mentioned ARCing in context of RCTM protocol, because during their dedicated hangboard phase they recommend no climbing at all, or, at most, very low- intensity ARC-type climbing.

Wh I do right now is bouldering-based training, but yes, I am training for rope climbing. I am following either Lattice or Power company plans, hanging is only a very small part of these plans. And I do feel that this approach is working well for me currently. Bouldering has absolutely improved my rope climbing. I am not looking to change the big picture of what I’m doing (4 weeks of strength, 4 weeks of power, 4 weeks of power endurance, with deload at the end of each phase). I am looking to tweak just the hanging aspect of my training plan.

you mention 'limit bouldering' which makes me think you want to boulder. campus board is also a critical component of bouldering. your campus board needs to line up with your v grade. for example, at v5 the prescribed campus board is 1-3-5. this is grade specific, for example, 146 is ~v6, so you'd need to list your v grade and look up where it falls. this is important because you need to understand what needs work. for example, if you can do 147 already, campus board is a waste of time. work on your finger strength instead. if your finger strength is 60% (v6) and you can do 146 but you can't do any v6, then you need to start looking at other stuff. make sure your shoulders are rated for v6 (archer pullups), make sure your core (L sits) are at the timing intervals required for v6.

Sure, campusing is part of the plan I am following, during the power phase. Power has always been my weakness. But the campus numbers vs grade is overly simplistic, and doesn’t take height into account. 1-3-5 is extremely difficult for me, I can only hit that when I’m in peak campus shape. I can rarely hit 1-4-match, let alone 1-4-5. But I have done multiple V5’s outside, and can sometimes flash kilterboard V5s. I will obviously continue working on this aspect. 

But my question is specifically about finger strength, and my finger strength seems to be less than it used to be. For example, staying with the campusing example, back when I was following RCTM protocol, I used to be able to do simple laddering on the smallest campus rungs, and it didn’t feel substantially harder than simple laddering on bigger holds. And now I find that very difficult. 

you should list what grade you are and what grade you want to get to in order to really delve where your weaknesses are. also, look up the test for your vgrade and see if it makes sense. if you claim to be v4, you should be able to hang 40% of your body weight on one arm on 20 mm. if this isn't true, report your tested v grade.

I can hang 1-armed at 90% body weight, and do one-arm shoulder shrugs. I hesitate to pick a V- grade or route grade, because those have always been all over the place for me. I rarely Boulder outside these days, since I had a knee surgery. I have done a couple kilterboard V6s, and around 20 kilterboard V5’s, but there are still V2/V3s on the kilterboard that I can’t do. I have flashed Tension board  V4s, and also have a sizeable list of Tension V2s that I’m still working on.

In the past two weeks I have:

—Sent a gym V7 in a few tries, did multiple gym V5’s in couple tries, flashed most of the gym V4s… but there are two V4s that I have been trying unsuccessfully for weeks, and I probably won’t be able to do them before they are taken down.

— onsighted a 12- and three 11+ In the gym, but also backed off a 10+ in the same gym. Can’t do that move even on toprope.

—onsighted 11d, and sent couple 12a’s in couple tries at the Red, but also aided through the crux of 11b at the same climbing area/in the same style.

So what grade am I? I can calculate percentages, or say “max I ever onsighted/flashed/redpointed”, but…

I usually measure progress in terms of specific routes that seemed very hard before, or moves on routes, rather than the grade number. 

Peter Beal wrote:

OP, probably worth working in person with an actual coach who knows how to do this kind of thing. Virtually every time I have introduced people (actual experienced climbers with training backgrounds) to actual max hang protocols in person they had no idea how to go about doing them correctly. 

I wish I could! There are no coaches that I could work with in-person, without me flying somewhere to meet the coach. I have done personalized 12-week training plan with Kris Hampton, since I know him, and it was helpful, in a sense of setting me up for how to do these cycles on my own. He did do video reviews… But it was still a virtual-based plan.  

Mark, Aweff's central point about max hangs is pretty valid, at least in the power and power endurance aspects. You need such a level of max strength that banging out say 10 reps at 75% of max will get you the boulder or crux of a route. It's what I emphasize in all my training recommendations now. Hard climbing is hard and getting past previous max strength levels is really important for improvement. One of things many miss about the RCTM repeaters is that they often involve substantial amounts of weight often on brutal holds. You should be fighting for the final reps in the set with next to no margin left

Yes! When I was doing RCTM repeaters they felt brutally hard. Physically, but also mentally. I think  I did benefit from the fact that Mike and his wife were my regular climbing partners at the time, and so I was getting in-person encouragement, and could bounce the questions off of Mike in real time.

The Max hangs seem very easy in comparison. I DO believe that I am using correct weight, because I have tried increasing it until failure, and the backing off, or doing the measurements exactly as Lattice instructs.  I also do think that I’m using the right hanging form, have asked input of climbing friends who would observe.

But you never know the things you don’t know. And yes, how difficult something feels in the moment is not necessarily a good gauge of how much benefit you would be getting from it. Still, I feel like Max hangs are hard for those 10sec, but much easier than repeaters, and overall mentally rather easy.

the schmuck wrote:

Wait, are you saying that a V4 climber who weighs 150 lbs should be able to one arm hang on a 20mm edge with 60 lbs added?  That sounds world class, not V4. 

I interpreted it as 40% of body weight, not 40% body weight ADDED. At least that’s how it was written in the post you are responding to.

I have to keep editing this response, bc MP won’t allow me any more comments  

FWIW, I had the opposite experience. I did repeaters for years, plateaued. then had improvement with max hangs. 

But I'm not sure my experience is generalizable- I think I'm much older than you and recovery is a big issue for me. 

Toying with switching back to repeaters for the next couple of months, mostly because I'd like to keep climbing as much as possible.

I also find that repeaters are harder than max hangs in some sense, but unfortunately I can't do decent max hangs after climbing and am reluctant to do them before climbing. So that just leaves repeaters...

This is kind of a reductionist analysis, but if you are doing something that is making you worse, then perhaps it is time to switch to something new or back to something that worked.

I wonder if you are adapted enough to max hangs that you are not getting much training stimulus? I find max hangs to be super effective, but only for a cycle or so, then progress slows dramatically, my best results have been doing a max hang protocol until I stop progressing pretty quickly, then switching to a repeater protocol and staying with that as long as I see gains, then do something like the Camp 4 human performance max recruitment protocol... I don't think it's helpful to mix it up within a cycle but overall I feel like I progress faster when I change up the stimulus every 4-6 months?

I have had a similar trajectory, started years ago with the Anderson bros repeaters protocol to good effect.

In recent years I followed the trend to max hangs (80-90%) and after a few years feel I have plateaued, not seeing any improvement from my last two cycles of max hangs.

Not sure if it’s just training age or age age or just that I need to switch protocols after a cycle or two to see more adaptation. 

I too went through a similar path, climbing with Mike and being indoctrinated in the RCTM light.
Now I train with the Lattice App but I do their version of repeaters & max hangs, alternating workouts. I find the max hangs feel doable because of their short length, and the repeaters feel doable because of their light weight, when contrasted against the other. I think mixing it up is beneficial.
One idea that comes to mind in relation to your plateau is TUT: Time Under Tension.
Are you simply hanging less with the new protocol?

Brendan N wrote:

I too went through a similar path, climbing with Mike and being indoctrinated in the RCTM light.
Now I train with the Lattice App but I do their version of repeaters & max hangs, alternating workouts. I find the max hangs feel doable because of their short length, and the repeaters feel doable because of their light weight, when contrasted against the other. I think mixing it up is beneficial.
One idea that comes to mind in relation to your plateau is TUT: Time Under Tension.
Are you simply hanging less with the new protocol?

Yes, definitely hanging a lot less under the Max hangs protocol, but that is to be expected, bc the intensity is supposed to be greater, due to much heavier weights. And I guess I’m not feeling that increased intensity, which is why I am wondering if I’m doing something wrong, or need to change things up.

My max hangs are very hold-dependent. I have lattice hangboard at home with their “official” 20mm edge. I find their specific edge radius to be very hard. When I did max hangs at home on the lattice hangboard, I was only adding about 15-17.5 lb to get to 90% of the max. But I cannot do more, bc I start slipping, and that is a no-no according to lattice instructions.

In contrast, when I do max hangs at the gym, the closest 20mm edge that is available to me is 22mm wooden campus board rung. I can hang on that one with 45-50 lb added.

Which seems like a very big discrepancy.

When I do a cycle, I commit to one of the boards for the duration of the cycle, for the sake of consistency/progress measurement. But on either of the boards, I do not see much improvement from baseline.

nowhere wrote:

I have had a similar trajectory, started years ago with the Anderson bros repeaters protocol to good effect.

In recent years I followed the trend to max hangs (80-90%) and after a few years feel I have plateaued, not seeing any improvement from my last two cycles of max hangs.

Not sure if it’s just training age or age age or just that I need to switch protocols after a cycle or two to see more adaptation.

I too have wondered if this is simply the “age age”. Are the crimps just harder because I’ve had various pulley injuries, broken fingers, etc, I the intervening 10 years? Sure is possible. But that is party why I’m thinking that maybe I should try the RCTMptotocol again, to compare apples to apples.  

Are you able to get the same rate of return on hangboarding of any kind, in year 10 of organized training, versus year 1 of organized training?

when you do lattice 3 month blocks do they have you change grip types, edge sizes, tut (for MS hangs 5 second, 7 second, 10 second) ever? Or are you just always two arms on a 20mil?

I think I remember reading up thread you were doing periodization of some kind. When you move through changing focus to a different energy system, are you still keeping MS hang volume happening in the BG, or are you spending blocks where the MS hangs take a big back seat?

I wonder with what you said your climbing goals were, what your training history is, and where you tested in relation to said goals, if your lattice plans are being written for a result you don’t actually care about as much? (ie sending a particular route) versus the goal of (stronger fingers in general)

Interesting about your hangs on the lattice edge versus the 22 mm at the gym. That’s a huge difference!

Lattice would probably say you’ll be a better climber long term by pulling the 20lbs on the lattice edge then you would pulling 45lbs on the gym edge. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s just salesmanship.

I would guess both have value. But maybe better to stick to one board for a block, and know what your training weights are across different boards. Which sounds like you already do?

that lattice edge is brutal. I use the BMK1K, and when I train at my buddies on the lattice, I have to drop at least 10lbs. 

Aweffwef Fewfae wrote:

your campus board needs to line up with your v grade. for example, at v5 the prescribed campus board is 1-3-5. this is grade specific, for example, 146 is ~v6, so you'd need to list your v grade and look up where it falls. this is important because you need to understand what needs work. for example, if you can do 147 already, campus board is a waste of time. work on your finger strength instead. if your finger strength is 60% (v6) and you can do 146 but you can't do any v6, then you need to start looking at other stuff. make sure your shoulders are rated for v6 (archer pullups), make sure your core (L sits) are at the timing intervals required for v6.

Where are you finding data that maps campus board moves to V grades?

Cole Darby wrote:

Interesting about your hangs on the lattice edge versus the 22 mm at the gym. That’s a huge difference!

Lattice would probably say you’ll be a better climber long term by pulling the 20lbs on the lattice edge then you would pulling 45lbs on the gym edge. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s just salesmanship.

I would guess both have value. But maybe better to stick to one board for a block, and know what your training weights are across different boards. Which sounds like you already do?

that lattice edge is brutal. I use the BMK1K, and when I train at my buddies on the lattice, I have to drop at least 10lbs. 

I too think that it makes more sense to do the harder edge (Lattice HB) with 15-20 lb, instead of doing an easier edge with 45 lb (if only bc it’s a drag to shell all that weight around, lol).

… but if you extend the same reasoning further, wouldn’t it make sense to do even harder holds, maybe even something that requires you to subtract weight? (back when I was going RCTM program, I had couple grips in my set that I couldn’t complete at body weight, so I was going repeaters with weight subtracted.). Except that completely defeats the purpose of max hangs, and turns them into something more similar to Min edge.

45 lb added weight is, for me, about 40% of my body weight. People are talking about adding 60%, or even more, weight for their Max hangs. If I go by that reasoning, the gym campus rungs are just right for my max hangs, and I should work on somehow increasing the weight on that hold up to added 60% of my body weight, before I talk about decreasing hold size. Doing the hangs at the gym is also convenient, bc the training plans are structured that way, and I am already warmed up.

Cole Darby wrote:

Are you able to get the same rate of return on hangboarding of any kind, in year 10 of organized training, versus year 1 of organized training?

Probably not. But I’m not thinking about it as 10 years of organized training, bc there was a period of several years in between when I wasn’t doing ANY hangboarding. By Eva Lopez’s research standards, I would be considered de-trained/untrained if I started doing Max hangs after several years of not doing any hangs. It would be a stretch to say that the RCTM repeaters we’re having an effect several years after I stopped training them, given that you see the de-training effect when you start a new set of RTCM training just a few months after the previous set.

when you do lattice 3 month blocks do they have you change grip types, edge sizes, tut (for MS hangs 5 second, 7 second, 10 second) ever? Or are you just always two arms on a 20mil?

No, Lattice plan does not change the grip type/edge size  they do both Max hangs and repeaters on the same 20mm edge, the difference is just weight/timing. At least that is how the program was written in my Lattice Lite 12-week plan  

I think I remember reading up thread you were doing periodization of some kind. When you move through changing focus to a different energy system, are you still keeping MS hang volume happening in the BG, or are you spending blocks where the MS hangs take a big back seat?

My periodization has more to do with indoor/outdoor climbing timing. Basically, I do 12 weeks of Power Company plan (similar to Lattice 12-week plan) that is broken down into three 4-week blocks. The first block has most emphasis on Strength and Stamina next block has more focus on power, and the last block is power endurance.

At that point I usually shift into climb-outdoors-on-weekends, and Boulder indoors during the week, and have 2.5-3 months of just performance outdoors/maintenance indoors.

Max hangs happen in the first two blocks of the program, then it shifts to Min edge hangs in the last 4 weeks. But hanging is a very minor part of the plan. I usually stop the Max hangs when I’m doing a lot of outdoor climbing. No particular reason, except I’m mentally tired of doing them

I wonder with what you said your climbing goals were, what your training history is, and where you tested in relation to said goals, if your lattice plans are being written for a result you don’t actually care about as much? (ie sending a particular route) versus the goal of (stronger fingers in general)

I DO definitely care about sending specific routes. Finger strength is not my goal in itself, only as it relates to climbing goals.

I see improvement in my climbing in the past year, but it seems attributable mostly to my emphasis on bouldering in my training. Not to finger strength, if that makes sense?

It sounds like you are extremely committed to climbing training which is great!  I was extremely consistent in training when I was a runner, people less consistent generally outperformed me. Are you getting enough rest? 

Yep, makes sense, thanks for sharing!

I’ve been with lattice about 2.5 years now. I’m usually pretty stoked to geek out on training, although sometimes I randomly get sick of talking about or reading/ listen to training content, so I just do my prescribed training and leave it at that.

They’ve occasionally had me add in a lot of different supporting work that seems to have helped my 20mm performance.

wrist curls, hammer curls, half crimp 4, open 4, front 3 half, back 3 half, open 3 front, scapular engagements work, etc. not sure if any of that would help you or not, as I have quite a bit less training BG than you.

Let us know where you land with your current questioning and assessments!

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I was extremely consistent in training when I was a runner, people less consistent generally outperformed me. Are you getting enough rest? 

Lol - Puppy Boy really wants to know if your freezer is packed full of shitty ice cream.

It's very strange to me that most of these protocols (afaik) stick primarily to one hang time. I think there's a lot of value in doing some hangs with more weight for 3-5 sec to expose your fingers to those strains, and some longer duration hangs. Something like: add 10 lbs to your working max hang weight, start with 3 sec hangs, then 5, then 7, doing whatever reps you would do otherwise.