Mountain Project Logo

Convince me not to be a guide

Original Post
Clayton Shaw · · Utah · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 10

Not really, but I needed a clickbait-y title.  

I just finished up my second year of college and have a decision to make: I can continue the program I’m in right now (outdoor product design/product line management, at least 3 more years, possibly 4 because of a previous degree change) and land a decent job that interests me a moderate amount that I could probably live with doing the rest of my life but never really love OR change my major yet again to a basic bachelors of science (technical product development would be the specific major) that I could complete in the next 1.5 to 2 years and start working towards a guide certification. I’ve all but decided on the second option, but I’d like to see input from others anyway. 

Why I want to guide:
My introduction to climbing was sketchy at best. My partner and I taught ourselves from books and YouTube and a lot of just figuring it out as we went. While I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m surprised I survived my first few years climbing, I would say it’s lucky nothing seriously bad happened to us. Flash forward a bit and I currently lead climbing trips for my university’s outdoor rec program. I find a lot of fulfillment in teaching others how to have a safer introduction to climbing than I had. I love being outside and I love climbing, but I also love helping others make those same connections. I enjoy being a trip leader way more than anything else I’ve done here at college, and I really think that guiding is what I want to do with my life. 

Why I want to finish school:
I’ve already put this much into it, and having some sort of degree to fall back on in case of injury or similar is worth the two years imo. I also want to keep  working in the outdoor rec program for a little while.

My plan from here:
I already have a WFR and avy rec 1, the plan is to get my SPI before I graduate, then start on my rock guide course and cert after graduation, ideally while working for an established outfit. Eventually I would like to be certified in rock and alpine, with the IFMGA cert a potential further down the road. 

My questions (if you made it this far you’re a real one):
What do you think of my plan?
Is it worth getting the SPI first, or should I go straight for rock guide?
Is WEMT worth my time?
What can you think of that might change my mind about everything?

If there’s any current guides among the MP masses I’d love your input, but I’ll read what everyone else has to say too. 

Tradiban · · 951-527-7959 · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 212
Clayton Shaw wrote:

Not really, but I needed a click bait-y title.  

I just finished up my second year of college and have a decision to make: I can continue the program I’m in right now (at least 3 more years, possibly 4 because I’ve switched programs previously and that might set me back) and land a decent job that interests me a moderate amount that I could probably live with doing the rest of my life but never really love OR change my major yet again to a basic bachelors of science that I could complete in the next 1.5 to 2 years and start working towards a guide certification. I’ve all but decided on the second option, but I’d like to see input from others anyway. 

Why I want to guide:
My introduction to climbing was sketchy at best. My partner and I taught ourselves from books and YouTube and a lot of just figuring it out as we went. While I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m surprised I survived my first few years climbing, I would say it’s lucky nothing seriously bad happened to us. Flash forward a bit and I currently lead climbing trips for my university’s outdoor rec program. I find a lot of fulfillment in teaching others how to have a safer introduction to climbing than I had. I love being outside and I love climbing, but I also love helping others make those same connections. I enjoy being a trip leader way more than anything else I’ve done here at college, and I really think that guiding is what I want to do with my life. 

Why I want to finish school:
I’ve already put this much into it, and having some sort of degree to fall back on in case of injury or similar is worth the two years imo. I also want to keep  working in the outdoor rec program for a little while.

My plan from here:
I already have a WFR and avy rec 1, the plan is to get my SPI before I graduate, then start on my rock guide course and cert after graduation, ideally while working for an established outfit. Eventually I would like to be certified in rock and alpine, with the IFMGA cert a potential further down the road. 

My questions (if you made it this far you’re a real one):
What do you think of my plan?
Is it worth getting the SPI first, or should I go straight for rock guide?
Is WEMT worth my time?
What can you think of that might change my mind about everything?

If there’s any current guides among the MP masses I’d love your input, but I’ll read what everyone else has to say too. 

Stay in school and get something worth falling back on. Guides don't make "good" money and it probably gets old after awhile. 

Real advice: Marry up.

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 441

What is the degree that you are currently considering?  What's the program you're in?  All you say is a "basic bachelors of science."  No idea what that means.   A college education has vastly different value depending on your major.  While an extra 1.5 to 2 years may seem like a long time, in the big picture, it's not that long, and if spending an extra 18-24 months in school means that you have a much more marketable skill set, then I would choose the (slightly) longer path.  I think it's a good time investment to have something to fall back on if guiding doesn't work out.  

As for being a guide, (other than teaching about a hundred boy scouts how to climb,) I've never guided, but I've used the services of guides on numerous occasions.  I have a couple of friends who are guides.  A number of guides I know have moved on to other work.  

Unfortuntely, in the US, the consession system that is a requirement for guiding on federal lands makes it much more difficult to guide than in Europe.  Because of the concession system, in the US, guides are tied to their service, whereas in Europe, a lot more independence is possible.  There is also a great deal of uncertainly right now because the federal government has decided to start regulating guiding wage and hours and OSHA issues.  Costs of guiding are going to increase, and a lot of folks are worried that these cost increases are going to price many clients out of the business.   

You can make a living being a guide, but it's not easy.  A guide friend once told me this joke:  "What's the difference between a guide and a large pizza?  A large pizza can feed a family of 4."  

My guide friends who are the most successful have side gigs/sponsorships with large outdoor companies to supplement their income.  Not everyone is carismatic and skilled enough to attract this sort of work.  

As a guiding client, I will tell you what I look for in a guide:  Competence, good judgement, a really positive stoked attitude, and a very high level of technical  climbing skill.  If you're missing any of those characteristics, you'd be unlikely to get my business (or at least any repeat business.)  

Evan Kirk · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 116

SPI has a pretty good ROI whereas rock guide track is long and very expensive. Depending on where you work, many companies just need SPI as the majority of the work comes from groups and very introductory days for beginners.

If you have a job that pays you actual money and has benefits (paid vacation, health insurance, etc.) you’ll likely be able to climb just as much for fun and likely travel more without the chronic headache of being broke.
The guide track typically sets you up for a pretty impoverished standard of living. And if you work enough to make a comfortable living, it means you won’t have enough time for personal trips.

Personal anecdotes but I’ve got my SPI and I’ve taken the RGC and this has been my experience in the Northeast. I now guide very occasionally and have much better quality of life, including more free time, since moving into a new career

Don’t romanticize guiding. It’s a job. But a low wage, seasonal job. You could easily get a job that pays you a living wage and still have a little side gig working in SPI terrain, for fun.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687

Lots of good points expressed here so far. There have been good threads on this topic over the past few years; do some searching of the forums; I remember there was more detailed discussion about the expense/income aspects of guiding. Full rock cert has been compared time- and expense-wise to persuing a graduate degree.

It sounds like you have the right motivation for guiding: helping folks have a rewarding experience, as opposed to some romanticized view of guiding as being paid to climb. Yes, it could get to that once you're IFMGA level, but trust me, SPI guides aren't doing a lot of self-fulfilling climbing for pay.  IME 50% of guides are done with guiding within 10 years. The "lifers" are a rare, dedicated breed.

I trust you are up to speed on the latest AMGA constraints on the type of terrain you'd be allowed to work in at each cert level. The rules (yea, they are only applicable to AMGA-accredited businesses, but major land managers pretty much insist on that, so it's a de facto standard) are fully in effect now after being eased in over the last few years. Also understand the regular re-cert that is required for SPI guides.

Lastly, you can probably have it both ways - college and guiding. You can obtain SPI cert rather quickly over one summer, and may well be able to do some work for a local guide service on school breaks and weekends. Which is when demand is highest.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Key unanswered question: what is your financial situation currently with paying for college?

If you are paying full price for college now using loans and racking up big student debt, it may not be worth sticking around to get that basic BS degree. A student debt burden (for a degree you aren't using) will significantly impair your ability to pursue a guide cert and subsist on guide pay.

But if you currently have an arrangement (family, scholarships, financial aid, etc) that is allowing you to finish school with minimal debt, and that arrangement might not always be available, it is probably worth it to finish school now while it is being paid for.

Talking about the value of college without talking about debt is really missing the key issue. This isn't to say that student debt is never a good idea, but you need to be sure the degree is worth it (and will facilitate the income needed to handle the debt) before taking on a potentially inescapable debt burden.

jackscoldsweat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 15

Reason to not be a guide:

#1. Everyone you're babysitting, is trying to kill you.

jcs

F r i t z · · (Currently on hiatus, new b… · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 1,155

Clayton, I appreciate your catchy thread title, your well-considered exposition of your thought process, and your coherent use of paragraphs and English syntax.

_____

One one hand: 

In the immortal words of Blink 182: "Work sucks; I know."

According to a slightly more omniscient source: "And unto Adam Burch He said, 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy knife, and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.'"

And from one of the most authoritative voices on MP, an esteemed professor: "Be wary of making your avocation into your vocation." 

_____

On the other hand: 

A partner of mine in GJ left a lucrative career to become a rock guide, and manages to enjoy both his client days and his personal days. I've known other guides who can pull it off.

______

On the prussik:

I guided in a wilderness therapy setting for two years and had my training paid for by the organization. Working with at-risk youth was very rewarding, albeit exhausting and low-paying.

I then started teaching fifth grade and ran an outdoor climbing club for my graduated students. That was also rewarding because I already had a relationship with the kids, and I had the added benefit of eventually getting two competent trad partners out of the deal, one of whom still swaps hard leads with me on multipitch.

The prospect of guiding rando clients who have the money to pay for a day of toproping has zero appeal for me. I know personally that I don't love climbing enough to belay-slave/solo-with-rope-drag for money and then go out and climb for fun on my days off.

Other people have that love, and that's awesome. Maybe you do too, OP. But perhaps take a path of moderation and test the waters by getting SPI work while also continuing your education, instead of jumping whole-hog into guidelife and then discovering down the road that you're burned out on ropecraft, medially-epicondyled AF and broke.

_________

I know nobody except OLH and her cat takes the time to read my logorrheic paragraphs in full, so here's the TLDR:

Unless you want to end up like a rock-jock version of Billy Madison (minus the Veronica Vaughn), stay in school and dabble in guidework until you're sure you want it.

And listen to Hobo Greg: your elbows will get ravaged #asaguide -- prioritize antagonist muscle training as a daily routine.

J B · · Cambridge, MA · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 20

To make a living guiding in North America you usually need to move with the seasons. That's not really compatible with having lasting friendships or intimate partnerships. 

Try to give yourself an out just in case your priorities change

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Suggested alternate option: take a leave of absence from school. Get an SPI. Work seasonally, immerse yourself in the guiding life, see what it's all about. After a year or two of this you'll have a much better idea if this is something that is right for you long term. Then you can fully commit to the AMGA path, or go back to school and fully commit to getting full value out of the college degree. This seems better than a half-assed effort to finish a useless college degree. 

Gumby King · · The Gym · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 52

Guiding might be great in the short term and a fun job, BUT think more long term.  Are you planning (or think you might plan) to settle down at some point?  Thoughts on kids?  Financial security can mean more freedom than guiding.  There are many opportunity costs (e.g., lifestyle sacrifices, health insurance, retirement fund, etc.) to consider with guiding.  Personally, I would focus on school get the degree, and keep the guiding as a job that produces fun money.

Per the degree, do informational interviews, try to get an internship etc. Make sure it's a job/career you really want to do.
--
Also, consider the cost of insurance for guiding.

Chris C · · Seattle, WA · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 407

If you’re not psyched about your degree, you may want to consider hitting the breaks on it and really considering what you want to do. That may be guide training, or it may be a different degree. If you are on federal financial aid, it will only help you with one undergrad, after that, you’re on your own. Check in with your school how long your credits will last. If you’re on federal aid, talk to your financial aid advisor as well.

I honestly believe that success and gratification in a person’s career comes from making an active decision every day that that is what you want to do.  You’ll work a ton of days of your life, so do something you love. 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2

Guiding over summers would be a kick ass way to make money for students, teachers and dirtbag climbers. Basically advanced summer camp jobs. Guides willing to travel to the prime spots during the prime seasons can make really good money, 1000.00 and up per week, even with a lowly SPI certification.

Will M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2016 · Points: 215

Other than Hobo Greg, I'm noticing not a whole bunch of folks actually work as a guide in the current age. I'll try to give some insight as well...

I've been full time for about four years, based in UT. I'm not seasonal by any means, from October - March is ice guiding, December - April is ski guiding, May - June is working on Denali, June - October is rock guiding. I base most of my work in Utah though I do travel to work in CO & AK and plan on adding WA & OR to the list in the coming year. Typically in the summers I'm working about 10-15 days per month. In the winter it's more like 20 - 25. This is mostly due to regional tendencies with UT having a much larger ski guiding scene compared to rock. Throughout the US I'm a guide/employee for five different operations, which allows for a lot of flexibility with my schedule. 

I work with plenty of lifers, most all own homes and have families. The key to this is not being in a single guiding track. If you're a sole rock guide then it's much harder to make it work compared to being able to guide rock, alpine, and ski. It's work, but it's engaging and interesting work. Even though most days are pretty typical, about 1 out of 10 days are pretty rad which is an added plus, ie. 7000' of ski touring or 5-10 pitches of good climbing. 

The further you move along, the more return clients you acquire which is beneficial long term as they're the ones most likely to come on international trips or more ambitious objectives. If you go down the IFMGA route, think skiing the Haute Route in the Alps or climbing bigger routes in Red Rock.

As for the SPI vs RGC, I'd go with rock guide course first. Upon completion, you're automatically "qualified" to guide more intensive objectives like short multi-pitches. Most employers will look upon the SPI & RGC equally, especially given the official AMGA scope of practice (July 2022). Though the SPI is a little bit more intensive for the single pitch environment, you come away with almost the same amount of skills from the RGC.

 I'm taking my ski exam next year, advanced rock this fall, and advanced alpine next fall. 

apross · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,916

To make it as a guide is not about the climbing, its about your personality.

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
apross wrote:

To make it as a guide is not about the climbing, its about your personality.

Similar to making it as a waiter, if you cant smile, converse and try to make everyone as happy as possible you may as well get a regular 9-5er. You gotta enjoy people.

plantmandan · · Rice Lake, WI · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 95

I once read an article about guiding, and it said something to the effect of, 'imagine guiding Richard Simmons up a mountain day after day'.

Tradiban is on to something here. Maybe you can meet your future 'marry up' bride while guiding.

Tradiban · · 951-527-7959 · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 212
plantmandan wrote:

Tradiban is on to something here. Maybe you can meet your future 'marry up' bride while guiding.

I know more than one "guide" who made the leap from dritybag to trad dad in one single night!

Clayton Shaw · · Utah · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 10
Will M wrote:

Thanks, that comment was super helpful. Thanks to everyone else for their input as well, I appreciate the different perspectives. 

Greg Davis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10
Will M wrote:

Other than Hobo Greg, I'm noticing not a whole bunch of folks actually work as a guide in the current age. I'll try to give some insight as well...

I've been full time for about four years, based in UT. I'm not seasonal by any means, from October - March is ice guiding, December - April is ski guiding, May - June is working on Denali, June - October is rock guiding. I base most of my work in Utah though I do travel to work in CO & AK and plan on adding WA & OR to the list in the coming year. Typically in the summers I'm working about 10-15 days per month. In the winter it's more like 20 - 25. This is mostly due to regional tendencies with UT having a much larger ski guiding scene compared to rock. Throughout the US I'm a guide/employee for five different operations, which allows for a lot of flexibility with my schedule. 

I work with plenty of lifers, most all own homes and have families. The key to this is not being in a single guiding track. If you're a sole rock guide then it's much harder to make it work compared to being able to guide rock, alpine, and ski. It's work, but it's engaging and interesting work. Even though most days are pretty typical, about 1 out of 10 days are pretty rad which is an added plus, ie. 7000' of ski touring or 5-10 pitches of good climbing. 

The further you move along, the more return clients you acquire which is beneficial long term as they're the ones most likely to come on international trips or more ambitious objectives. If you go down the IFMGA route, think skiing the Haute Route in the Alps or climbing bigger routes in Red Rock.

As for the SPI vs RGC, I'd go with rock guide course first. Upon completion, you're automatically "qualified" to guide more intensive objectives like short multi-pitches. Most employers will look upon the SPI & RGC equally, especially given the official AMGA scope of practice (July 2022). Though the SPI is a little bit more intensive for the single pitch environment, you come away with almost the same amount of skills from the RGC.

 I'm taking my ski exam next year, advanced rock this fall, and advanced alpine next fall. 

There aren't a lot of full time guides because it is rarely sustainable because of how hard you have to hustle to stay on top of your bookings - working for 5 companies in 3 mediums in 3-5 states is not chill, but damn I respect it!

While I love many parts of my job and what it brings me it really isn't for everyone. You never know til you try it out, and you can always guide part-time and have something rewarding and fun to build and grow. I started guiding 15+ years after I started climbing and I really appreciated all that time climbing was just for me, but sharing it for the past 6 years is fun too.

Cesar Cardenas · · San Diego, CA · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 30

Maybe work in medical. Flexible schedules. Good pay. Always hiring everywhere. They pretty much approve every vacation you ask for. You can set your schedule to be 6 on 8 off etc. You can get a good cert or license in 1-2 years. You can do it your entire life, not just until you blow your knee because you guided all week and you wanted to climb your project on your one day off. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Convince me not to be a guide"

Log In to Reply
Welcome

Join the Community! It's FREE

Already have an account? Login to close this notice.