Training thumbs up strength

I think I'm comparatively at weak at pulling on thumbs up jams, both in finger and hand sizes. Some combination of arm/shoulder/back strength is lacking so that pulling straight down while square to the crack is extremely hard. If I can rotate the shoulders to be in line with the crack (like when swimming the hands) then it's ok, but not when going straight hand over hand.

Another case where this comes up is clipping anchors on finger cracks in the Creek when there's an offset. Even when it's a really good thumbs up lock I can't reach off to the side, and instead always thumbs down the opposite hand and cross clip.

Does anybody else share this weakness? Have any tests for measuring what I'm talking about, and specific exercises for training it? It seems related to lock-off strength, but also slightly different.

I know that I'm weak if I have to lock off on a far away gaston etc. However on a solid jam I can pull pretty hard toward my body and reach.

Such strength is IMO made with lads of chinups and bent over rows. Progressing in weight is important. After reaching  15 reps I find that I always plateau if I'm not adding weight.

Also the jamming lock off position is similar to doing jam chinups with hands in the same crack(machine) and palms facing towards the body.

In the end I focus on movement patterns and not body parts. Locking off in this manner is about pulling and that's what needs to be trained instead of just shoulders or biceps.

i think it is more a case of the security of the jam (ie thumbs down is typically more locker because you can naturally apply a lot more torque to it), than pulling power on the actual jam.  typically a person will have better straight pulling power in a thumbs up configuration.

It sounds like you're struggling to hold the jam, maybe it's worth making a jamming block to hang off for some training. 

Maybe your thumbs-up jam technique is off? When a mentor showed me that hand jams were mainly about rolling in the base of the thumb, _not_ squeezing with fingers, it was a revelation for me. In appropriate sized cracks, that technique allows me to hang my entire body weight off of a one-handed jam. Because of the natural tendency to twist your hand with a thumbs-down jam, you might be applying this technique without even realizing it.

I'm skeptical it's (completely) jamming technique since I experience this even with wrist-lock constrictions.

Chin ups don't really feel the same to me. I thought maybe neutral grip pull ups might, but it didn't feel the same with the bar spacing I tried on.

I can't hang 1 arm off hand jam in either orientation, but also can't hang 1 arm off a pull up bar. My shoulders feel pretty strong in some orientations, and useless in others.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

enduro corner ?

As training? I actually like corners, since you can rotate you shoulders perpendicular to the ground. It's splitters that get me.

It sounds like thumbs up vs. down is allowing you to just use different muscles. Just a wild guess, but for thumbs down maybe it is more pectoral and biceps, more of a motion pulling in toward your chest? For thumbs up maybe it is more triceps and rotator cuff, more of a karate chop motion pulling down toward your waist? Without someone watching you, it will be hard to know.

I had a similar problem a while back. In my case, certain shoulder movements (gaston) just felt really weak. So, I learned to recognize those kinds of movements on climbs and figure out ways to avoid them. I ended up going to a PT for a completely unrelated problem (broken ankle rehab). During one of my visits, I had him evaluate my shoulders and he identified the problem immediately. My problem was down to an imbalance in my muscles that I was able to train and fix. Basically, my rotator cuff was just too weak compared to the rest of my arm and back muscles. After a few weeks of targeted exercise, I felt way stronger on those certain shoulder movements.

Maybe a good climbing-specific trainer or PT could help you identify what is going on?

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

yeah thumbs up that thing the whole way and don’t lay back

I'm not sure what you mean, nothing in this thread is about laybacking. Thumbs up the top hand somehow? Corners naturally make you swim your hands which is what I feel strong at when jamming.

CD: It might actually be rotator cuff related. I have injured them a fair amount outside of climbing and maybe just have learned to avoid using them.

Is your strength fairly symmetric or asymetric? In corners, are you stronger in an LFC or an RFC (straight in cracks)? I am definitely stronger leading with my left, thumbs down (typical LFC straight in crack). I have found that in splitter cracks i tend to be stronger on the left hand, thumbs down also.

On a side note, thats kind if crazy you cant 1 hand hang from a hand jam or jug. You climb pretty hard. (Somebody told me once that i climbed pretty hard for how weak i am, lolz, so i have been dying to share the same "compliment").

Definitely prefer to lead with the left thumbs down, but I think that's just a straightforward bias I could even out.

CD Transporter wrote:

It sounds like thumbs up vs. down is allowing you to just use different muscles. Just a wild guess, but for thumbs down maybe it is more pectoral and biceps, more of a motion pulling in toward your chest? For thumbs up maybe it is more triceps and rotator cuff, more of a karate chop motion pulling down toward your waist? 

I would love for anyone knowledgeable to confirm this. I get weirdly sore triceps (not biceps) after a ton of hand jamming and this kind of  helps explain. (most of my hand jamming is thumbs up) 

@Austin - how's your overhead mobility?  I've never climbed at the creek but I'm imagining holding a strenuous jam and trying to clip the rope high overhead without good mobility. Sounds hard. Your thought about cross clipping seems pretty normal to me, that position seems theoretically stronger if you are cranking hard. 

Definitely worth trying to find a good PT, the good ones these days will sit and have a chat and then crank out an exercise plan for you and diagnose weaknesses better than we can! Good luck 

How's your footwork/body positioning?  Maybe you're not keeping your body close enough to the wall?  If your booty is sticking too far out it'll be a lot more stress on your jams.

I had a forearm putty, it was blue and came in a silver case shaped like a fist. I would press my thumb into it during class. Pretty sure it made me more like Popeye. The key was to do it over and over and over and over.