Using glue-ins in steep rock

Just curious if anyone has any tricks for using glue-ins when establishing new routes in steep rock.  I have done quite a lot of bolt replacement on steep rock with glue-ins as you can use the old bolts to pull yourself in to drill the new holes.  It works pretty well to drill and clean all the new holes in one go and then come back and place all the bolts at once from the top down and then finally to remove the old hardware.  I have tried to envision a way to do a new route that doesn't include owning 15 removable bolts and is fast enough to be able to place multiple bolts in one session so your glue doesn't set in the nozzle.  Has anyone figured out a method that works for this?

I do this regularly, and the best option is a good double rack, and sometimes triples, and as a backup, you can have several 3/8 x 4" Titen HD bolts with a 1/2" hanger if you run into a place where no gear is possible to get in. 

Placing gear is different than when lead climbing. You want bomber placements, but you take what you can get sometimes. It's a pretty creative process getting down a lot of potential sport routes, so bring some tiny gear, including ballnuts, and big gear up to 5's and 6's for shelves. Ive spent over 45mins trying to find a placement before drilling the temp screw, but you can sort of do what you want in that regard, but I try my best to minimize extra holes when possible. 

Feel free to ask more questions if you have any. 

It's not a really specific answer, but when bolting 2 routes at City Creek Shoreline Crag, I used a combination of hooks, trad gear, and a 1/4" 5-piece rawl or two to get the glue-ins in. I found those little 1/4" rawls with a small wire behind the washer to be pretty handy back in that day. The resulting hole was often so invisible I'd just shove a pebble in it and call it good. But I did those two routes, my only glue-in routes, in two pushes each. Meaning I sacrificed a couple of nozzles just so I wouldn't end up placing any bad bolts by being in a hurry. They were shortish routes but very steep. As Matthew says, creative/marginal hooks and gear placements in pockets can certainly help. Again, I only did two glue-in routes, but for me at the time, it was better to just deal with added nozzle cost to do it right. Good luck!

To add, the more placements the better in roofs. Take your time, and make sure to have two adjustable tethers or you could end up in a very tough spot. If I had one piece of advice for steep bolting, it's never go without two adjustable tethers. 

Using trad gear doesn't work in places/rock when there's no placements to be had, which is common in limestone.

I use cheap 3/8" x 3" mechanical bolts under the roofs and bulges.  I over-drill the holes so that once the glue-ins are set,  I can remove the nuts and hangers, and then pound the bolt into the rock so it's recessed over an inch below the surface of the rock.  I've never used more than four bolts for 80' sport routes (some overhang 20') because they are solid and omni-directional  (unlike tiny trad gear in shitty placements).

I bolt from the bottom up in one pass using a glue (RE-500) that has a 20 minute gel-time.   I can casually drill, brush, glue and then jug to the next placement before the glue sets up in the nozzle.

I just finished bolting a route with a steep section (~25ft) in between two vertical faces. After faffing around with trying to find marginal placements for gear and aiding my way down the route, I ended up placing two temporary 1/4" bolts and fixing a static line to the hangers. I was able to drill and clean in one pass and then go back to glue in a second pass. I'm curious to hear if anyone else has experience with this method for longer routes though, you might end up with too much rope stretch at some point, even with a static line.

This is about what I figured.  All of these suggestions are well and good but don't really get at the root of the problem.  In Wyoming dolomite where I have done the bulk of my route development it is much easier to put a route up with stainless hardware and just anticipate it needing to be replaced in 15 years.  There are rarely gear options for tramming in.  My practice has been to use hooks with a tether, or rbs with very shallow holes (I have several ones that are 3/8 inch, not sure if they are still made commercially) to tram in on rappel and then place a protection bolt in the appropriate location.  That bolt can then be used immediately as a fixed point to descend, tram in again, and put the protection bolt in again  Our rock is chossy enough to rarely need to fill these rb holes.   In humid/salty environs I can see the need to establish routes with glue-ins from the get go, but the extra effort of all these shenanigans doesn't seem worth it for my particular situation. 

The 8mm Petzl Pulse has been an essential piece of gear for me when putting glue-ins on steep limestone. Having one or two works well when combined with trad gear, adjustable tethers, and other tools that others have mentioned. The 8mm hole that's left is easy to seal over with epoxy and dirt or, with some trickery, once you get to that hole you can remove the Pulse, redrill it as your glue-in hole, and place a glue-in right there. That technique assumes you can still stay close to the wall from your other pieces above.

Concrete screws like the Titen HD's are far superior to any other temp bolt ive used, including all mentioned here except the petzl (which i haven't tried). Quick, easy, and nothing left behind. I use these in roofs with no issues. Dirt cheap and reusable.

Hooks are also clutch in general. 

I sure wish they made adjustable tethers back in my day ... I was fussing and fooling with clipping into different loops on my daisies. Or that RBs existed, for that matter. I hear they work well for bolting. In trafficked areas, the "eventual replacement" approach is good enough I think. But I think overall, if glue-ins need to go in from the get-go and there just aren't hook or gear options, either RBs or some type of small, temporary bolt/s that you would eventually pull and patch the holes are the best you can do.

A friend in Northern WY uses 1/8"x2 or so tapcon screws with a washer/hanger to establish on steep rock then puts in glue in when he's done cleaning and settled on bolt placement... seems like a lot of steps.

I think the only real trouble is nuts coming loose.  Early season I have found hangers with fixed draws on them that have fallen off over the winter due to wind a few times now.  I generally get nervous about hardware coming loose a lot of people pay no attention to what they clip especially if its fixed.

Ill likely keep using SS mechanical hardware in steep terrain too, should last a very long time around WY.

A funny thought - what will the Wolf Point rebolting effort look like... an strenuous hour hike to replace hardware on difficult climbs, in very steep terrain, with fickle access, and limited season.

Here is an idea. the cobra super sleeve bolts are cheap and easily removable / reusable. Aid rope solo the route on those and get a fixed line up. Figure out if your placements need to be different than the holes you already drilled. Ascend the fixed rope / re-aid it on TRS. Get on the next bolt, pull the last one, replace it with a glue in then continue all the way up. If you want more space between the bolts than what you can drill going bolt to bolt, just pull the bolt and patch it without adding a glue in. If the route is super steep and it is hard to reach the last placement from the next bolt, you can use hooks, 1/4" button heads, trad gear, etc to help position yourself while adding the glue in. Or just place the glue in next to the original temporary sleeve bolt 

Edit: this would only be worthwhile in terrain that is too steep to rap bolt and if that is the case, using glue ins initially is going to be a pain regardless of how you go about it 

Scoot Bank wrote:

Here is an idea. the cobra super sleeve bolts are cheap and easily removable / reusable. Aid rope solo the route on those and get a fixed line up. Figure out if your placements need to be different than the holes you already drilled. Ascend the fixed rope / re-aid it on TRS. Get on the next bolt, pull the last one, replace it with a glue in then continue all the way up. If you want more space between the bolts than what you can drill going bolt to bolt, just pull the bolt and patch it without adding a glue in. If the route is super steep and it is hard to reach the last placement from the next bolt, you can use hooks, 1/4" button heads, trad gear, etc to help position yourself while adding the glue in. Or just place the glue in next to the original temporary sleeve bolt 

That sounds like a complete nightmare. Please try that and let us know how many temp bolts it takes for a 80+ ft route.