Best Value SS 316 Bolts

I’m sure everyone has there opinions.

I’m looking to develop a crag in the PNW that is less than 100 ft from a lake and we see a fair amount of rain up here.

seems like 316 SS is the way to go…

I’m looking at all my different options and curious to see what others are using.

thanks in advance y’all!

That's pretty vague but if the rock is bullet your cheapest acceptable option would be powerstuds in 316, next step up would be hilti kb3s. Glue in twist bolts aren't much more expensive after you account for having to buy a hanger for the previous options. It's an economical option that would be better both in terms of corrosion and longevity. 

"Best value" is poor criteria for selecting bolts. 

Climbing-specific bolts (such as, Petzl, Raumer, Fixe, etc.) are expensive and not in my budget. For use in good granite,  I look for construction-certified wedge anchors.

For wedge anchors, my #1 choice is Hilti for design, precision, and quality. Hilti Kwik Bolt KB3 or KB-TZ, but the list price is crazy expensive. Sometimes great deals can be found on eBay or Craigslist.

#2 Dewalt Powers "Power-Stud". 

#3 ITW Redhead "Trubolt", an older basic design, but well proven.

For example, a quick search on eBay turned up these deals:  

eBay item number: 265385441399 (2-3/4" is a little short for my liking, with about 1-7/8" effective embedment, but acceptable in high quality hard rock. I prefer 3.75" length, using a power drill).

eBay item number: 224949892670

Avoid cheap, off brand, unlabeled/generic, non-certified (for construction) bolts.

Sorry if that came across vague.

The rock is medium quality, not super choss, not bomber granite, not exactly sure the rock type...

To better articulate my question...

Which 316 Bolts are most popular to use, what does everyone like and trust, any that are considered junk that I should steer clear of? I'm looking for a 3/8" x 3-4".

There seems to be a large price discrepancy as to what's available and its a lot to sift through. I'm reaching out to local developers as well but figured I could learn a lot from the collective MP community.

These are about the cheapest 316 bolts I could find: Team Tough10mmx100mm

These seem like a reasonable "middle of the road" option: Fixe Powers 316

Getting really pricey: Fixe Powers 5 Piece

Most expensive option available? Hilti KB3

Anywhere you have found prices better than these?

@ Climb Baja

I’m not trying to be ultra cheap, just price conscious. I can buy 1 Hilti KB3 for $9 or 3 of the Team Tough ones for $9… that equals 3x as many routes as I can develop… not trying to use cheap ass hardware store stuff. I guess that’s what I mean by value, high quality but not overpriced.

Thanks for the tips on checking CL and EBay, I’ll try that out.

Given your description of the rock, "medium quality, not super choss, not bomber granite, not exactly sure the rock type...", do not use the 2-.75" or 3" wedge anchors. Use 3.5" minimum length. First, find experienced climber-developers who can look at the rock and inform you whether a wedge anchor is appropriate.

The Powers "5-piece" link you gave is for a 3/8" in 304SS. The inner bolt has a smaller diameter, so I'd recommend 1/2" if you decide to go with a sleeve anchor. But very expensive. Glue-in anchors would be cheaper.

The Team Tough (Bolt Products) wedge anchor is metric. Years ago, it was difficult to source metric SDS bits, but Team Tough sells them at a reasonable price. 10mm is slightly fatter than 3/8", plenty strong, and way less expensive than the Powers Power-Stud from Fixe. Jim Titt of Bolt Products in Germany is frequently on this forum. He would not sell inferior hardware. If a wedge anchor is appropriate in that "medium quality" rock, and knowing that the rock is less than perfect, perhaps step up in size to 12mm x 110mm for a little more money.   team-tough.com/12mm-x-110mm…

There is no point in trying to list all of the junk or counterfeit bolts. Go with one of the top 3 or 4 brands from a known supplier, while shopping for best price or a deal.

I would say it really depends on what ways the rock is bad.
I absolutely would not buy five piece they are harder to work with, harder to place and more easily become spinners. I would especially recommend against the 1/2 inch. The 3/8ths are fine strength wise and when your route gets rebolted in 50 years they can go up in hole size.

I don’t think not knowing the actual  rock type is a big deal you could look up a geology survey. Also I believe bolt strength is way over-rated, the rock the bolts is in is more important. Buy 316 wedge that are at least 3.0’’ and buy a winch. Place bolts in the bad rock and attach them to a winch (they are 30 bucks on Amazon). If they don’t rip out the rock your gonna be fine!

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I would say it really depends on what ways the rock is bad.
I absolutely would not buy five piece they are harder to work with, harder to place and more easily become spinners. I would especially recommend against the 1/2 inch. The 3/8ths are fine strength wise and when your route gets rebolted in 50 years they can go up in hole size.

I don’t think not knowing the actual  rock type is a big deal you could look up a geology survey. Also I believe bolt strength is way over-rated, the rock the bolts is in is more important. Buy 316 wedge that are at least 3.0’’ and buy a winch. Place bolts in the bad rock and attach them to a winch (they are 30 bucks on Amazon). If they don’t rip out the rock your gonna be fine!

Sometimes when typing one should ask themselves "do I really need to type this" 

But hey, thats just me.

Strange responses regarding the winch, but also regarding the powers sleeve bolts.  I wonder how much experience you have using them, as they are quite easy to place and the 1/2" size is definitely superior to the 3/8" version, despite what you may have garnered from the other thread talking about their use primarily in the Sandstone of the Red River Gorge. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Strange responses regarding the winch, but also regarding the powers sleeve bolts.  I wonder how much experience you have using them, as they are quite easy to place and the 1/2" size is definitely superior to the 3/8" version, despite what you may have garnered from the other thread talking about their use primarily in the Sandstone of the Red River Gorge. 

I have placed over 100! Everyone here hates them, I’m receptive to feedback but the issue here seems that the rock tends to crumble just a little and when the hanger isn’t perfectly flush the hanger will spin. At least with a wedge you can tighten it down again. I would guess his rock is more similar to mine than anything else since it is PNW. Is there any difference between the 3/8 and 1/2 other than strength? Or do you have a good tips for fixing the spinners? I have 20 I havent placed because every 1 in 10 was becoming a spinner. 

Montoya, I don’t know what to tell you. If you don’t know anything about the rock might as well test how strong it is in an objective way! The winch is also helpful to remove choss or fallen trees. Just be careful not to winch something that will roll too far, because it may snap the rope its attached to (but just hide behind something if that is your fear). And don't over winch, just make sure that with some winch power it doesn't move. 

Elijah S wrote:

@ Climb Baja

I’m not trying to be ultra cheap, just price conscious. I can buy 1 Hilti KB3 for $9 or 3 of the Team Tough ones for $9… that equals 3x as many routes as I can develop… not trying to use cheap ass hardware store stuff. I guess that’s what I mean by value, high quality but not overpriced.

Thanks for the tips on checking CL and EBay, I’ll try that out.

I prefer the team tough (bolt products) wedge bolts over the Hiltis. They're both great but the bolt products ones are just a little better in my opinion. And I've placed a ton of both.

Hey Elijah,
1. If you’re new to developing, team up with someone who has bolted before. There’s allot more than just drilling in some holes. 95% of guys that post on here happy to help like Bobby Hutton, Mark Hudon, Tim, Jim T, M Jaggers, rock ice, even Princess Pup, etc…. If your talking Banks Lake or closer to Spokane, message me and I’d be happy to work with you some weekends or you’re welcome to join in on a few routes I have in process.
2. For gear, don’t go cheapest! Get good quality, safe gear. Get your friends/family literal “buy in”, 5 buddies and I all did this, split $1200 fixe order into $200 each.

I'm just got  50 Hilti KB3 3/8 x 3” 304SS for $80 shipped from eBay.  Hard granite and hand drilling (mandatory) for my area so 3" is great.  Longer and 1/2” is definitely better if the rock is poor.  My point: watch eBay.  I usually check every week or so and have bought hundreds of SS bolts for less than $2 a piece.  

Pete S wrote:

Hey Elijah,
1. If you’re new to developing, team up with someone who has bolted before…
2. For gear, don’t go cheapest! Get good quality, safe gear…

Hey Pete,

Thanks for your response, 

1. I am new to developing. I’m based out of Eugene, OR and have already reached out to several route developers near by, I’m planning to get some help/ mentorship.

2. That’s my goal of posting here, it can be tricky to sort out what is a good value, what is over priced and what is just plain outrageous… I posted a few links of the products I was considering, I think I’m going to go with the Team Tough Bolt Products 10mm x 100mm because they are the best value I have found for 316 SS… a lot of people are posting links to 304 which is cheaper but may not last as long where I’m planning to bolt.

thanks again for your thoughts 

Make sure you get 10mm bits, don't use 3/8" bits.

Elijah S wrote:

Hey Pete,

Thanks for your response, 

1. I am new to developing. I’m based out of Eugene, OR and have already reached out to several route developers near by, I’m planning to get some help/ mentorship.

2. That’s my goal of posting here, it can be tricky to sort out what is a good value, what is over priced and what is just plain outrageous… I posted a few links of the products I was considering, I think I’m going to go with the Team Tough Bolt Products 10mm x 100mm because they are the best value I have found for 316 SS… a lot of people are posting links to 304 which is cheaper but may not last as long where I’m planning to bolt.

thanks again for your thoughts 

Simpson Strong-Tie makes wedge-alls in 316SS.  3/8 drill bits are generally easier to find than 10mm.  WA375006SS are 3/8" x 5", they make a 3.75" as well.  Should be able to find a box of 50 for ~$200 or less

Here are the Simpson bolts, about $3 apiece.  And you can use a 3/8" bit.  I've used these ICC-ES listed bolts in both high end commercial construction and climbing for over 15 years.  

https://www.fastenersplus.com/products/3-8-x-3-1-2-Strong-Tie-Wedge-All-Anchor-316-Stainless-Steel-Pkg-50

Specs: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0277/8644/4936/files/C-A-2016-Wedge-All-designinfo.pdf?v=16926435398632326494

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Strange responses regarding the winch, but also regarding the powers sleeve bolts.  I wonder how much experience you have using them, as they are quite easy to place and the 1/2" size is definitely superior to the 3/8" version, despite what you may have garnered from the other thread talking about their use primarily in the Sandstone of the Red River Gorge. 

You all want these to be good so bad you won't even listen to people in other areas that don't like them. Just because you pay a fraction of what they cost, because of the community fund and your sweet deal with buying them in bulk, doesn't mean they work well for climbing. Turn off the ego and listen to real feedback. Or just flag this and get it redacted because you don't like hearing the truth. 

And "quite easy" is misleading at best. How "quite easy" is it to be forced to go back to every route a day or two later and have to re-torque every bolt before getting to climb on them? Thats worse than waiting on glue ins. Sounds like a huge hassle to me. And then the whole spinner debate will not be done anytime soon.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

You all want these to be good so bad you won't even listen to people in other areas that don't like them. Just because you pay a fraction of what they cost, because of the community fund and your sweet deal with buying them in bulk, doesn't mean they work well for climbing. Turn off the ego and listen to real feedback. Or just flag this and get it redacted because you don't like hearing the truth. 

And "quite easy" is misleading at best. How "quite easy" is it to be forced to go back to every route a day or two later and have to re-torque every bolt before getting to climb on them? Thats worse than waiting on glue ins. Sounds like a huge hassle to me. And then the whole spinner debate will not be done anytime soon.

The debate will never be over with hoardes of brand new "FAists" with no formal skills just winging it as they go. I'm sure you can agree with all the experience you have behind the drill right?

M M wrote:

The debate will never be over with hoardes of brand new "FAists" with no formal skills just winging it as they go. I'm sure you can agree with all the experience you have behind the drill right?

I do like the term "FAist" much better than "developer". Or even worse, "route setter"... Those still makes me cringe.

To the OP: If you're spending anywhere near 2-3 bucks for a wedge bolt then do yourself a favor and buy the Bolt-Products ones. Yes, they are metric but it's not a big deal if you're not drilling ground-up from stances. To save money I drill a pilot hole with a (less expensive) 3/8" bit and enlarge it with either a 10mm or 12mm as needed. It works well with all of my drills and gives me a lot more mileage out of the metric bits (Team-tough.com actually metric for a very reasonable price anyway). If you buy standard bits in bulk you can usually get them for ~2 or 3 bucks each for the good ones. Just keep an eye on the metric bits to ensure they don't get too narrow and start drilling holes that are too tight; a little wallowing can help a little here when the narrowing is minimal.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I have placed over 100! Everyone here hates them, I’m receptive to feedback but the issue here seems that the rock tends to crumble just a little and when the hanger isn’t perfectly flush the hanger will spin. At least with a wedge you can tighten it down again. I would guess his rock is more similar to mine than anything else since it is PNW. Is there any difference between the 3/8 and 1/2 other than strength? Or do you have a good tips for fixing the spinners? I have 20 I havent placed because every 1 in 10 was becoming a spinner.

I'm not getting any perma spinners in hard limestone. 

Things to check,

1. Your drill bit isn't too worn down making the hole too small.

2. That you finger together the cone such that it is partially engaged but not over engaged. 

3. That your hole is clean,  brush and blow tube or air pump. I've witnessed plenty of people getting spinners from poorly cleaned holes.

4. Try to keep your plastic dust caps on the cone. 

5. Hold the sleeve as you pound it in putting a little back pressure and ensuring the bolt is going in straight. 

6. If you start to get a perma spinner clip in direct and put some outward pressure on the hanger as you tighten.

A good mentor goes a long way. One major difference between the 3/8 and 1/2" is the torque spec is higher on the 1/2", and thus you often get less spinners occurring from use. 

That's a ridiculous notion that the 5 peice can't be tightened if the rock crumbles behind the hanger,  they can be tightened again no problem. 

Jaggers: I haven't placed a SS 5 peice in the Red in over 5 years,  I'm speaking of my experience in other rock types, in which in many cases they're a great bolt. Even in rrg they are the best option for an all ss mechanical bolt.  Give it a break.