Blowtorch Method On Wet Sandstone?!?!

Has anyone heard of this? My homie that sends 5.14 overhang in the Red said this was cool…

Jokes aside, why don’t we, as a community: exercise judgement, assess individual LNT ethics and how best to preserve our collective environment?

Why is it difficult to reach a consensus, and educate others, not to climb on saturated sandstone, indigenous holidays, or my Aunt Pam’s bday?! If you need a definition of saturated, read a book.

What is up with the self righteousness babel these days? “O well, my British mate Tommy climbs on wet gritstone each and every Sunday.” Good for Tommy….

I am in your gym right now handing out dougnuts if you want to swing by and talk about how many cams Mr. Choss Boss owns.

Corbin and Gritstone are totally cool to climb wet as people have done for decades. Conflating structurally different ‘sandstones’ into one holy commandment ‘thou shalt not even look at humid sandstone’ is more confusing than helpful. Out in the chossy West US, things are different and we all act accordingly; simple as that.

Only Siths deal in absolutes.

Edit: but torches are pretty damn aggro though and likely not a good idea 

Adam bloc wrote:

Corbin and Gritstone are totally cool to climb wet 

As is metamorphic sandstone like the Pool Wall at Ouray, or the bomber glommer sand like Eldo and the Flatirons.

Wingate: 24 hours of sun to dry.

Aztec: slightly more

Navajo: ~48ish unless you're one of the RadBoiz from Payagain. Then you can climb it the next morning. The rock on Wall Street will obvs know you're a "local" and remain erect for your pleasure.

Cutler and Chinle: best climbed on ballnuts during a thunderstorm

F r i t z wrote:

Cutler and Chinle: best climbed on ballnuts during a thunderstorm

Nonsense. You just pick out the best holds at the bottom and carry them up with you, using them wherever necessary.

Obviously not the point of this thread, but nearly all rock that gets damaged when wet in the UK or Ireland disappeared probably 10,000 years ago when those two islands became rainy s****holes for most of the year (with the exception of some rock in the south of England). It rains around 250 days per year in Kerry, I don't think I've ever climbed there when there wasn't some Atlantic storm blowing through (the rock there is sandstone, but impermeable). At one point we had an American exchange student at our university, and the climbing club went on a trip in the middle of February - it was obviously pissing down the entire trip. As we were slithering up the insignificant wet crags we have over there, she said 'I thought you weren't supposed to climb wet rock' - I hadn't even realised wet rock was in issue in some places.

There is no scientific evidence that wet rock is weaker. Brittle rock is brittle and can break anytime.

Tradiban wrote:

There is no scientific evidence that wet rock is weaker. Brittle rock is brittle and can break anytime.

https://oconnell.berkeley.edu/2020/12/sandstone-mechanics/

Allen Sanderson wrote:

https://oconnell.berkeley.edu/2020/12/sandstone-mechanics/

Thanks for the link! For everyone watching at home the article clearly blames fatigue loading for failures, NOT rain the night before. Vindication is mine!

Tradiban wrote:

Thanks for the link, the article clearly blames fatigue loading for failures, NOT rain the night before. Vindication is mine!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1365160921003002

Y'all who say the jury is still out on wet sandstone are like the researchers who could never "conclusively" prove that smoking causes lung cancer

EJN wrote:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1365160921003002

Y'all who say the jury is still out on wet sandstone are like the researchers who could never "conclusively" prove that smoking causes lung cancer

Read the first article posted by Allen, it explains why the results you posted aren't relevant to climbing.

The simplified explanation is that rain erodes rock, meaning it weakens it over time not in the moment it is wet.

Wet sandstone deniers should try extricating an overcammed unit with a bit of water. That's all the proof I need to stay the muthafugg off wet sandstone in the West.

Tradiban wrote:

The simplified explanation is that rain erodes rock, meaning it weakens it over time not in the moment it is wet.

Moments are part of time.  

F r i t z wrote:

Wet sandstone deniers should try extricating an overcammed unit with a bit of water. That's all the proof I need to stay the muthafugg off wet sandstone in the West.

When I was little, my sister hit me with a suitcase and chipped my tooth. It gave me a great spout to squirt water. It’s come in handy.

Interestingly, the water trick can work in granite probably by reducing the coefficient of friction but not always. In Colorado Plateau types of sandstone, I’ve never seen it not work.

F r i t z wrote:

Wet sandstone deniers should try extricating an overcammed unit with a bit of water. That's all the proof I need to stay the muthafugg off wet sandstone in the West.

This is an example of erosion not fracture.

Tradiban wrote:

This is an example of erosion not fracture.

So that’s ok then?

Tradi, I'm a fan and enjoy talking to you on the phone from time to time. That said, how much Wingate / Navajo / Aztec have you climbed?

F r i t z wrote:

Tradi, I'm a fan and enjoy talking to you on the phone from time to time. That said, how much Wingate / Navajo / Aztec have you climbed?

Plenty braj. It's soft and breaks from time to time, wet or not.

The cancel culture around when to climb after rain is for the birds.

Tradiban wrote:

Thanks for the link! For everyone watching at home the article clearly blames fatigue loading for failures, NOT rain the night before. Vindication is mine!

Biased idiot (me) checking in. This article seems poorly written, relies on personal anecdotes, and has a pointed interpretation of someone else's data.  I'm not sure if you actually believe this article,  or have gone to third level trolling (which would actually be refreshing around here). I feel it'd be equally or more valid to say "even a 1% increase in water saturation could create significant sensitivity to fatigue loading for the most vulnerable sandstone holds". 

Which based on my personal anecdotes, I can pointedly tell you is true. But I have a lot of experience climbing on wet desert sandstone.

SWEET, 

So I will now interject with some fact-based truth that can be tested in a small lab setting even in your home. 

I am a practicing hydrogeologist that specializes in Colorado Plateau geology as well as geomorphology (erosional forces). Water, in the present time AND over geologic time, is the best erosive force on the planet, along with gravity. When water is combined with gravity, rock becomes weak. This goes for all rock types actually, whether they are a porous sandstone or an impermeable granite. The word impermeable is actually a misnomer, because NO material is truly impermeable. In time, water will erode anything, even plastic.... 

Simply because a rock matrix ( the glue of a rock), such as granite or basalt, does not become saturated after rain does NOT mean the rock is not weakened... as a matter of fact, any friable or exfoliating material in ANY rock type regardless of lithology, IS weakened with the introduction of water... Thus, loose and unconsolidated material, such as large detached blocks, or weakly attached flakes, could very well break off ANY rock type after a rain... Think about the boot flake that fell on El cap.... that didn't just happen miraculously, it was after many years of melt-freeze events combined with gravity... and humans pulling on such features certainly speeds this process along.

Now, that being said, is Wingate sandstone more susceptible to breaking and fracturing after rain than say, yosemite grantie? yes. Does granite or quartzite dry out quicker than a porous material such as sandstone? yes. Is it ok to climb on igneous or metamorphic rock sooner than sedimentary? yes. can you still break holds or dislodge previously loose blocks from igneous or metamorphic rock after a rainstorm? yes. do people in wet areas such as England or new England climb more regularly after rain than in an arid area like Utah? yes. can they still damage a route? yes. can you safely climb overhung sandstone in the red after a rainstorm? yes. do alpine climbers climb in the rain? yes. Do alpine climbers bail off a route because it is too wet? yes....

So here is the answer I believe, as a community, we should be spreading.

1) use judgment. rock types respond differently to rain events and the level of saturation will vary from rock to rock and from event to event. if you think the rock is too wet to climb (use the surrounding soil as an indicator) don't climb it. granitic soils dry faster than sandstone soils, etc. in theory, if it simply sprinkled and didn't saturate, you can in theory still climb desert sandstone. but that is your call, and your consequence to deal with if you accidentally alter a route. just because you can do something, does not mean you are not an asshole....

2) stop and think for yourself. if 5.14 john climbs in the rain because he says it is ok, make your own call on whether you want or not. there is much more than on-route rock to consider such as destroying a trail when it is muddy, pulling off loose blocks, etc. it can also be dangerous to climb on wet rock because it reduces friction. so maybe if you can come back another time it is best. maybe if you insist on sending before your trip is done, then you must make that call and face all consequences.

3) there are NO blanket statements about climbing after the rain. it is ALL situational and to people who live in/ near the plateau, we are simply trying to warn people from out of town that you can't climb the day after a big rain like you maybe would in the gunks....

Lastly, we could all maybe stop being so self-entitled and insist on climbing in any and all conditions, bolting petroglyphs, or  climbing during indigenous holidays. the point of my rant was to draw attention to our selflessness as a community. Your ego can wait one day to climb, its ok guy....

Is it really that big of a deal to give the rock one damn extra day to heal itself before you go sticking your salad fingers all up in it? Sure, hand cracks, probably fine after a rain. The chips and flakes that are key holds? your fucking it up!

Word. Go ahead, drown me in your anecdotal evidence and not-topical non-peer-reviewed articles about rock fracturing. but before you do so, get your master's in hydraulic mechanics and get back to me. 

MA D wrote:

SWEET, 

So I will now interject with some fact-based truth that can be tested in a small lab setting even in your home.

I award you One Snuggly Gote for your quality post and will buy you a beer in GJ, or give you a discount on any of the fingers cams I'm currently selling. PM me to redeem.