Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Top bouldering grade vs route grade
|
Sorry to French and Font users, but I'm gonna use Hueco and YDS. The well-known correlation is something like a 12a has about a V4 crux (or less, if there's an endurance component), 13a has a V7 crux, 14a has a V10 crux, etc. Of course endurance routes can have moves much easier than this equivalence; for example, Southern Smoke at the Red is 14c and has nothing harder than V6, but nothing much easier as well. An excellent survey article is here: http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.com/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-route-grades.html So, here's a question: over 30 people have climbed V16 now, which should equate to a 16a crux. But there are no 16a's in the world. Wouldn't a 14a route into a no-hands rest followed by a V16 be rated 16a? Is it surprising it hasn't happened?! If you're not really surprised, can you explain why? Most climbers agree that bouldering at the crux grade of a route is far easier than climbing a route with that crux. My best rp is 12a but I've climbed V7 (indoors at least). And Neely Quinn once said on her podcast it's a common goal for people to say they want to climb "V10 and 13a this year" which is pretty out of whack in her view, but maybe makes sense when you look at how much harder people boulder versus what they can do on a rope? |
John RB wrote: That "etc" is doing a lot of work here. The grading scales don't continue at the same pace, it's as simple at that. Eyeballing Font vs Hueco grades make it seem like the Hueco grades "speed up" after V11. So it's not surprising the YDS/Hueco relation doesn't hold. A YDS/Font one does seem to, though. Of course Font grades might be inconsistent, too. The point is that it's not guaranteed for grading scales to grow consistently compared to each other throughout their ranges.  |
Austin Donisan wrote: Hey Austin, I wasn't comparing V-grades to Font (as your chart does). It's true that there are more Font grades up to about V9, but then it pretty much stays synched after that. I suspect V19 will be 9A+, V20 will be 9B, and so forth. The comparison I was making is between the V-grade of a boulder problem and the route grade of a roped sport climb. They are not "really" equivalent because an 8-move boulder problem is a pretty different proposition compared to a 48-move route, but sometimes people speak about the crux of a route as being a boulder problem, so that article I linked to tried to draw equivalences based on crux difficulty and distribution. |
John RB wrote: I know you weren't. It was explaining why your assumption of "V4=12a, V7=13a, V10=14a, therefore V16=16a" is unfounded. |
|
My two cents: As to your first question, it is really uncommon to find routes at that standard with no-hands rests. There may be something like a no-hands knee bar, but even those are really strenuous. At a much lower standard, I have experienced your example. It was a 45’ 12b with a V5 crux, to a no-hands rest, to a sustained and really pumpy 50’ 12b with a V2/3 crux. Due to the no-hands, it was still 12b (despite the V5 crux and two 12b’s stacked on top of each other). My personal experience is that I generally climb harder on a rope than boulder. I have climbed several 12d’s, but I have NEVER climbed harder than V5 outside. I think that the difference is that I get to work route cruxes on a rope, whereas when I boulder I have to start from scratch every single time. It is probably tough for most people to be at top form for both routes and bouldering simultaneously. |
|
Adam Ondra said in a recent epic tv interview that, at the top end and for very short bouldery routes, there is a ~3 grade difference between font and French grades. So a short route that would be graded 8C+ (V16) would only be 9b (5.15b). It seems kinda wacky to me that the grades would line up like that at the top end, but I am in no position to argue with Ondra. It also does help explain the number of 8C+ Boulder ascents compared to hard routes. |
the schmuck wrote: You gotta find your self some low ball lip traverses. But I'd argue staying in top form from both bouldering and rope unless at the elitest of levels is more up to how often you're doing either discipline. If you do each equally you develop tactics and strength to see somewhat similar progression, at least with my climbing partners and my self. |
|
I think one reason for the lack of 16a routes is simply finding one. I believe Ondra said the crux of Silence is V15 and the route has several kneebar rests, so that seems somewhat inline with the idea that a route with a V16 crux and one or more no-hands rests could be 16a. But someone has to track down that very special piece of rock and bolt it. It's simply logistically easier to find short boulder problems that fit the criteria of being crazy hard but not impossible than it is to find and develop routes of the same. So bouldering grades will probably always be ahead of route grades to an extent. As for the multitudes that boulder way harder than their route grade, my opinion is that they: 1) Spend way more time bouldering and hence are better at it 2) Are scared of falling and don't actually try hard when sport climbing 3) Are using gym grades for at least one side of the comparison. Gym bouldering grades often feel more inflated to me than gym route grades. This is obviously exacerbated if people use an outdoor route grade and an indoor boulder grade, as you seem to be. |
Israel R wrote: yeah, this tracks. With the clarification that V10 actually correlates better with 13d, giving the following linear progression for short bouldery routes: V11=14a, V12=14b, V13=14c, V14 = 14d (the fly), V15=15a, V16=15b For silence the reason it's 15d with a V15 crux is due to there being a 14d intro, and some easier exit boulders. Also, i think part of the reason for the mismatch in bouldering/rope grades is that, from a sheer numbers perspective, there are just significantly more people who just spend most of their time bouldering. People are naturally going to be better at whatever they practice the most... |
Israel R wrote: I found this statement at around 3min in the video you linked. I'd never heard him (or anyone) say this before. It is weird that things would line up like this at the top end (when they don't seem to in the middle grades of 5.12/13). Given his view, and given who he is, I wonder if there's a new chart that would show us what the "equivalence" should be. To the poster above who said that routes with a boulder problem and no-hands rests are uncommon, I invite you to climb around Boulder! I can point you to tons of routes just like this. Are the classics? Nah.. not really. If you want classic, go to the RRG. :) |
Short Fall Sean wrote: I think making a 16a indoors is relatively easy. You can just stack boulders on top of each other with no (or at best poor) rests. For example "The Project" is a series of boulders from V3 to V15 with no rests. https://www.gymclimber.com/the-hardest-indoor-route/ No one has sent it yet, but it may be in the 5.16a range, or harder. Silence is V13 to a no hands (kneebar) to a V15, to a V13 to a V5. So The Project may be harder. And it would be trivial to extend it further with another hard boulder of course. But that's indoors... finding something natural like this seems very unlikely.
I agree with all of the above (although I was using indoor grades for both, not mixing them as you suggest). Add to your list that it's much easier to work a boulder than a 40m pitch given the logistics. You can even work a boulder solo. |
Rollin wrote: This makes a ton of sense. There's a V13 boulder into easier climbing near me and it's rated 14c. It also matches Ondra's statement. Assuming your chart continues, it means V17=15c, so the two (possibly 3) V17's would get that grade if graded as routes, but no V18 and therefore no 15d's that are boulders. I wonder what the chart looks like at lower grades... does it match the graphs in the article I posted in the OP? Seems like V7 is still 13a ish (see https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105869028/bottom-feeder) so maybe like this:  |
John RB wrote: yeah, I really like how that article explains everything, and it also "feels" right to me based on my experience. But yes, V4=5.12-, V5=5.12, V6=5.12+, V7=13a, V8=13b, V9=13c is accurate to me. Any lower than that and it starts to feel weird. V3=5.11ish? V2=5.11-? V1=5.10? idk |
|
I guess I'm not surprised because V16 is really hard. Any route/rock that could contrive a V16 boulder would have some pretty difficult climbing up to said boulder, perhaps much harder than 5.14a. I'm sure these routes exist, some of them are probably even bolted. My best guess is it will pop up in the standard spots: Flatanger, Ceuse, Oliana, etc. in the next 5 years or so. I know there are rumblings that Silence could perhaps be even harder than 5.15d, but we'll never know until someone actually climbs 5.16a. |
John RB wrote: |
|
Bit of a thread drift here, but still pertinent. I don't know how much I agree with this statement (which I quoted above and then failed to properly reply to). In my own experience, and anecdotally from many of my friends, I feel like my route ability and my bouldering ability are fairly even. Ondra himself has done V16 and 5.15d. I consider myself a sport climber mostly, but use bouldering as a tool to improve on routes. I live in an area with more route climbing than bouldering (not sure if that is pertinent or not). It would be interesting to here from others about how far apart their best sends are in both disciplines. |
|
They are fairly even for me on rock, v5 and 12b in a session. I don't have much redpointing experince outside because rock is far away. |
|
I think that's one interesting aspect of being primarily a sport climber, but it's hard to compare because even boulders can have an endurance aspect. My one hardest boulder is V11, which was similar in style and length to some 14a routes i've done in AF. Those all took a similar amount of sessions, so in that aspect, its pretty even. I have projected and done harder graded sport routes (up to 14c), even though they probably didnt have any moves (or short sequences) harder than V9 or V10 for example (power endurance routes and such). But also, I don't project boulders outside though, so i dont have data to compare here. I have flashed V9 and 13c, so those match. On the other hand, theres plenty of routes/boulders with easier grades which i have not done due to personal weaknesses and style differences so who knows. |
Tom Rangitsch wrote: But Ondra has also said that V16 is about 5.15b if it's on a rope, in his estimation. |
|
I can't remember exactly but Bibliographie doesn't have a move harder than V12 right? It's just really sustained power endurance, without the bouldery crux it would still go at like 14d at least I think? At the end of the day, we should just readjust everything to the 5.9 scale. As soon as a harder route is repointed, we just shuffle everything down. Ez |
Chris Ham wrote: There is a route in the Red that's 14c but has nothing harder than V6. It really depends on other factors, how many rests, length of route, etc. |
