Another "First Trad Rack" Topic..

Advice on first Trad Rack

Hey guys, im getting into trad climbing and doing some research to build my first trad rack

would appreciate some advice on the gear list i've made.

i've used the search tool and most of the topics were too open/broad and didnt helped me out, but anyway, sorry if im being repetitive

*I already sport climb for some time and have all the basic gear, except for cams and nuts, so i wont mention quickdraws, atc, cordelettes and anchors

PS1: I Know that it depends on where im climbing, but this would be a general rack, do it all and i could complement with my friends if needed, and since i climb in VERY different places, i'm looking into one size fits all approach.

PS2: Im looking for some good lifespan, so i dont think BD Ultralight would be a good option right?!?!

PS3: I dont know much about the other options, than that BD is the most avaible in the market and easy to repair/sell.. I was even thinking about getting totems, but im afraid that repair will be difficult since its an european brand.

Nuts:

1 set of cypher huevos or dmm regular nuts

1 set of DMM Alloy offsets

1 set of dmm peenuts

(first option was brass offsets but the price difference is too big)

*is it enough?? sometimes there's a part of me that says that i should get 2 sets of each. in my first days of trad/aid i've been using nuts way more than cams..maybe because its easier to place and im not proficient in placing cams yet and that will change in the future?!?!?

Cams:

2 Sets of BD z4 (0.0 - 0.4)

1 Set of BF Z4 Offset (0.0 - 0.4)

2 Sets of Camalot C4

* SHould i get 1 set of each brand? some people say that is better for the way they place, the lobes or wheteaver.. specially the small ones, like 1 set BD and 1 set metolius for example

10 60cm Slings Beal 6mm

2 120cm Slings?!?!?

20 Camp Photon's for racking

2 Nut tools Metolius Torque

(plus the 12 17cm draws i already have and 4 alpine 60cm, and a ton of lockers)

peace and god bless!

TLDR: sport getting into trad, already have basic material, in thinking about getting double rack of nuts + cams(small, regular and offsets), in doubt about cost x benefit x durability since i most climb internationally and not always have authorized repair/dealers avaible and if i should get 2 different brands for each rack because i've read somewhere that this might be good for different fit on the rock

3 sets of micro cams / offset cams is probably not a high ROI investment unless you really like finger cracks

Malcolm Hansell wrote:

3 sets of micro cams / offset cams is probably not a high ROI investment unless you really like finger cracks

So.. 2 regulars and 3 small, no offsets.. Everything else is fine? Thanks for the heads-up 

No tri-cams?  YGD

Agree this is way overkill. Start with a single rack of C4s and nuts and then get more as you actually need. Personally I'd be into getting your second set of cams in another brand, maybe the DMM Dragons. Their built in slings work a treat surprisingly often and means further extension isn't necessary, saving time and weight. 

Getting a set of regular nuts and the DMM offsets is a great idea. Do that and a single rack from .3 to 3 or 4 and you'll be trad climbing. No need to buy all that other stuff just to get going. You'll probably end up with a double rack at some point anyway so starting out with one isn't a terrible idea, but you might end up wishing you had gotten Totems or Dragons or some other cam that it turns out you may very much like. For that reason I say get a single rack of C4s and then once you have more experience and have played with other people's cams some then if you think the C4s are doing it for ya then go doubles on that, and if you fall in love with Metolius cams or whatever then get doubles in the other brand. 

Personally I have four complete racks of cams (don't judge me), one Metolius Power Cams (the older, double stem cams), BD C4s, DMM Dragons, and Totems. The Dragons come out the most, followed by the Totems, followed by the Power Cams, followed by the C4s. The C4s are great, nothing wrong with them at all, but all the other brands offer something that the C4s don't that lead me to preferring them. Plenty of people insist the C4 is the best cam in the world and don't want to use anything else, but that there may be a lot of personal preference involved here and that you should learn what you do and don't like before getting a double rack of BD cams is my point. 

As someone who has way way too much rack (like 8-10 of every size cam and many many nuts), just get a double rack of cams, 0.1-4 bd ,and a single set of dmm or BD offsets. My go to multipitch cragging rack these days if I don’t know what I’m climbing is double 0.2-3, single 0.1&4, 5 alpines 60cms, 5 quick draws,  single 120cm sling, and 5-7 nuts up to about a BD #6 (pretty small and they usually get left in my bag anyways).  A mix of brands is fun, but the Z4s are about as good as totems unless you are doing some weird shit and C4s will last longer than WC Friends in my experience with them. Oh and I have only found 1 placement so far that I actually HAD to use a dedicated offset cam, so only get offsets as you need them for specific routes.

I have never understood people buying a rack of micro (<=0.75 flex stem) cams AND offset cams, when totems exist. (at least in the context of trad climbing, for aid/wall it makes more sense to me)

Get the brassies. They are so bomber, it is insane. Worth every penny you pay for em. Worth way more than micro cams. Standard rack for most areas in the east is doubles .3-3, one 4 is good to have, singles in the micros sizes (0, .1, .2), one set of nuts (i prefer offsets, almost never rack my walnuts anymore), brassies for free climbing, peanuts are pretty much only good for aid when you need more durability due to them being loaded on every placement. I basically have the exact rack you are getting except I didn’t bother with the offset cams, they are nice but for free climbing, not really essential, just get double totems totems in those sizes instead of the camalots. 

I don’t agree with the 1 set of nuts 1 set of cams for beginners, unless you can supplement it with partner’s gear or you climb short pitches. For 150’ plus pitches you’ll want 1 set of nuts and almost 2 sets of cams, so you don't need to run anything out which you don't want to do as a beginner.

Not a fan of BD ultralight and having to replace them after 10 years. But they are nice if you don’t mind spending lots of money.

BD is great for #1 and above. For small cams Totems are my choice nowadays. They hold better than anything else and are more versatile (they work like regular and offset cams). Or to save money either BD or Metolius small cams are fine.

For 98% of the free climbs I do (mostly California granite) I would buy:

1 set of offset nuts

2 sets of Totems .5 to 1.25 (or BD .2 to .75)

2 sets of C4 1 to 4

And generally, I leave 1 #3 and 1 #4 on the ground unless there’s lots of wide cracks, in that case I may leave a few small cams on the ground, but the big cams weigh a lot and I try to minimize how many I bring.

I wouldn’t bother with more nuts, microcams, and offset small cams unless I wanted to aid something.

I have a frankenrack which means I’ve tried every cam out there, and quite a few that aren’t anymore. My recs are below, but going all C4/Z4 is a great rack as well:

• DMM Alloy Offsets
• DMM peenuts
• Z4 0-0.4 (not necessary to go this small, but it’s nice to have down to 0.1 sometimes)
• Totem Black-Yellow
• 2x Z4 0.5, 0.75 (IMO best cams available in these sizes)
  2x WC Friends 1-3 (the double length sling is sweet - these are so stiff that they walk like motherfuckers which is more problematic in the small sizes. Great for hands)
• BD C4 for 4+ as needed for your area

Math Bert wrote:

No tri-cams?  YGD

haha i knew someon would bring that up.. i used a few here, but didnt like te feel on the rock. it seemed that they was about to slide on the rock. but since everybody talks about it, i might get a black and a pink since they're pretty cheap

--------------------------EDIT because of the Daily post limit--------------------------

Thanks a lot for all the feedback guys.. i think i came to a conclusion..

ill start with

1 set peenuts, alloy and regular nuts (ill look for used to keep it cheap, and try to use a lot to improve placement and avoid destroying cams)

1 set C4 

1 set totem or  z4 + double totem 0.5-0.8 to act like offsets (it will depend on the budget but if im short on money ill get 1 Z4 and totems from .5 to .8)

and thats it... ill try to use partners/friends cams and see what i like the most, but so far, i've seen only good feedback on the Dragons, so ill keep an eye on them for the future

agains, thank you so much for the feedback, ill comeback here when i have it ready.,. for now.. ill dig into the "For Sale forum" and start looking for good oportunities

Totems are wonderful, but they are really not as necessary as most people seem to imply, especially if you are on a budget. 

You can get two mastercams for about the same price as one totem.

I’ve tried way too many varieties of cams. Don’t like dragons to be honest. They're slightly smaller for each size than C4’s and the range doesn’t seem as good. They do bite well though.

Z4’s are awesome. If you can find X4’s for cheap they’re also solid, just check the sling years and wear on lobes. I like Z4’s about as much as totems with the bonus that you can find them decently on sale. Unless you’re in the southeast I’d skip the 0, get a single 0.1 and aim for working towards doubles .2-3

Nuts wise, peanuts and cypher huevos would be a solid combo. Larger nuts the perfect fit matters less and I’ve been happy with my huevos. Exact same as BD nuts minus the logo and got them for cheaper than I could find used nuts

I prefer Z4 over C4 up to 0.75 where they are avilable. Z4 0 is not really something i feel good about free freeclimbing and double of 0.1 seem like quite advanced. Totems are very nice and I dont think repair of cams is much of an issue.

Agree with above - personally don't lead with BD smaller than 0.3

Already lots of advice on here, and any cam I have used is a good cam. 

That being said I am a big fan of WC zero Friends and Friends. There isn't a huge difference in useable range, I find dual axel in the small sizes unnecessary (and possible lobe deformation scary). 

1 set of zero friends, 1 set Z4 offsets, WC friends from .75-3 (extendable slings), BD cams 4, 5 (only need one in these sizes for now, unless you really like offwidth they usually get left in the car. 

One full set of nuts should be sufficient. I remember placing nuts more often when I started too. 

I would argue that a lot of this advice would be more helpful if folks knew where you climbed the most. I know you stated general rack, but even a “standard rack” can drastically change depending on where you’re at.

I personally would say get C4’s from 0.5-3 then TCU’s for the smaller sizes. They’re cheap and bombproof. Brass micro-nuts are great. Any standard but will work for you in the larger sizes. And if you REALLY want micro gear, ballnutz are a great investment. They’re half the price of a nice cam and fit in more places. They also have more holding power than and equivalent size cam. Figure out if you use those sizes often enough to justify buying expensive micro cams then. 

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

I would argue that a lot of this advice would be more helpful if folks knew where you climbed the most. I know you stated general rack, but even a “standard rack” can drastically change depending on where you’re at.

I personally would say get C4’s from 0.5-3 then TCU’s for the smaller sizes. They’re cheap and bombproof. Brass micro-nuts are great. Any standard but will work for you in the larger sizes. And if you REALLY want micro gear, ballnutz are a great investment. They’re half the price of a nice cam and fit in more places. They also have more holding power than and equivalent size cam. Figure out if you use those sizes often enough to justify buying expensive micro cams then. 

thanks for the added feedback guys, i always carry a prussik, thats for sure lol. and will keep an eye on the WC friends too.

the most important is the advice that all cams can be used with no problem.. sometimes, i see things here and it looks like that totems are mandatory and nothing else works good.. now i have pace of mind to buy something else if i cant affor totems from the start.

and.. Garret, there's only one friend of mine that uses ballnuts, but i remeber seeing somewhere that they only hold bodyweight, so you should only work for aid climb, is that true?. i think that the design is great. but.. any issue with cleaning??

ps: does anyone know how to quote multiple people at once?!??!

Isaiah aka Zay Foulks wrote:

EDIT: and for the love of god. Always carry a prussik

Good advice. For multipitch I always carry 3 prusiks and a small knife for self rescue. A lot of beginners I see have to idea what to do in an emergency. Buy and read a self rescue book, and practice some skills. 

I typically rack doubles in .75-3. One half being c4, the other being new friends. One 4, and 5, in c4. One 000 c3. Doubles in .1-.5. Half being aliens. Half being mastercams and an extra gray alien. Dmm offsets, and be stoppers. Never has that rack ever failed to get me up anything I want to get up. Desert towers, to granite splitters, and southern sandstone. 

I'll put in another plug for the WC Friends, it comes down to whether you like the extendible sling or not. I do, it often saves me a quickdraw. I also like the milled faces and the weight savings of the hollow axles. Since BD raised their C4 prices, WC is about 5 bucks cheaper at list price. People say they are less durable, but I've had them for a while and not had any issues.

For me, a "standard rack" is cams from thin fingers to #3 with doubles in the finger to fat finger sizes, a set of curved stoppers and a set of offset stoppers. But these days I adjust my rack for the gear beta for most routes.

The big gear mystery for me is still what the best small cams are - below a black Totem. I wound up with Z4's which are OK but not great once they get to single axle, also have CCH aliens, X4's, C3's and have tried the WC zero's. I think the Fixe Alien Revolution might be the best but I am scared off by the customer service nightmare stories!