Hellhole Canyon Preserve/La Jolla Indian Reservation

I have been out in the canyon beneath Highway 76 and just south of Palomar Mountain several times. I’ve rappelled the giant slab in the canyon and I am aware it is on the reservation. However I am more concerned with what seems to be better climbing, looking south from the slab, across the canyon, is a set of mighty fine bluffs. 200-250 ft, nearly vertical slabs, to overhanging pitches. They are not on the reservation and can be accessed via the hellhole canyon preserve. I have done a scouting trip and identified what appeared to be evidence of previous climbing. If anyone has any information on these bluffs please reply or message me. If you’re gonna get your panties in a bunch from me posting this, go to that other thread “san diego climbing scene”, that’s where you belong.

It's probably a long hike from Hell Hole canyon right? It's totally up to you, but you could either drop a pin of the location or post up your route on how to get there. Another option would be to get the trail dialed in then post a meet up for other climbers to go. This way you could share equipment & save some weight on the hike in. 

here is the discussion from the San Diego climbers facebook page where I asked the same question last September

Chris HubbardThe parking is behind the ridge on the right. Big approach. Actual climbing history there unknown to me. North facing is good. Might have poison oak. Rattlers for sure and mountain lions very likely. Go for it! Report back
2

Eric NewcombThat's an obscure area known as Hellhole Bluffs. It's on private land. Good winter crag if you are up for a long approach with lot of bushwhacking

Shady could mean likely poison oak.

The old FOIA data that ACSD got from the CNF said there was an eagle nest somewhere on that mountain.  Vague.

Hellish approach ✔️

Poison oak ✔️

Bulletproof brush ✔️

Hostile Natives ✔️

Dirt and grass filled cracks ✔️

Lichen infested slabs ✔️

Eagle’s nest ?

Thanks for all you do to keep climbers at bay and protect the birds, even if there aren’t any, Tom!

It does have a nice view

Thanks for continuing your campaign of misinformation, Kevin.

Did you fail to read the 2009 FOIA data from the CNF, or do you just have a selective memory?

I simply posted historical information, but apparently that is forbidden in the newWoraldorder. 

I simply posted historical info also, Tom

ACSD, of which I am a founding member, was formed to protect climbing areas from unreasonable closures supported by the kind of “vague” or nonexistent evidence you cited above. I see the implication in your post as leaning in the direction of bird protection rather than supportive of climbing

Your history, and unfortunately ACSD’s, after our initial success at Corte Madera and Eagle Peak, has consistently favored bird advocates’ and environmental extremists’ interests over climbers’ in cases where land managers have no objection to climbing.

I don't see the value in claiming "there aren't any"  when you don't know that.  I am simply letting climbers know that there is a slight chance at locations such as this of disturbing nesting.  There was historical nesting there (Rodriguez Mtn), however now I reread that info and it says the known locations were just south of the peak, not north.  Generally unless you monitor a cliff for long enough before approaching, you might spook any eagles.  There is no closure at that location, nor did I suggest one, nor did I suggest someone stay away.  I am simply informing people of the historical facts, something you don't like.  Unfortunately the CNF & FWS often only has limited information, and is quite tight lipped about most nest locations, despite our requests for information, so I don't have any update.  Neither do you.  It is up to all visitors to make their own informed decisions.

In your Jan 30 post you erroneously claimed: "Lastly, the FS never produced any documentation of Eagle nests, active or otherwise, at EP or CM."

As you and ACSD well know, there is plenty of evidence of historical nesting.  Note that only active nesting (within perhaps 5-7 years) is a valid reason for official restrictions.  ACSD was only concerned with active nesting, so the exact historical date that eagles left EP and CM is not particularly relevant.
Here are a few snippets from the 2009 FOIA attachments showing previous historical nesting knowledge from surveys done of past nest locations.

Scan0011071 from 1996.
Rodriguez Mtn - flight info No eagles but 2 old nests seen. 2 Adolescent eagles on territory 1996 and 1995.
Corte Madera - no nest found, old nest gone. Eagles have abandoned the cliffs of Corte Madera.
Eagle Peak -  no nest found, old nest sites probably burned in eagle peak fire.

Scan0011081 1997
Eagle Pk  - 2 adults flying in area.

Scan0011091 a 2007 update plus summary of past eagle data.
Eagle Pk - inactive nest. 1996 & 1997 adolescents on territory. burned in 1993, 1996. 1996 last reproduction. [ yes that seems to contradict the 1996 survey. That is irrelevant to the basic question of whether this was a historical nest location.]
Corte Madera - inactive nests.  last on site 1998.  1991 last reproduction.

Scan0011041 1991 eagle survey
Eagle Peak - no nest sites found.
Corte Madera - no nest sighted. Historical activity in 1977 and 1979. [ My note - activity at site can be also observed from lookout]
Rodriguez Mtn - 2 inactive nests located south of peak.

The CNF did not provide details of the 1970s surveys.  A BLM document was referenced.

You also have no insight to what happens at ACSD since you have been gone for 11 years.  The fact is, in general ACSD continues to favor access over most environmental excessive restrictions, same as always, same as the Mission Statement.

 As you admitted in that same Jan 30 post in regard to the secret crag,   "I spoke directly to the tribal chairwoman, and the AF sent a Native American representative a year or so later who they opened up to, and I spoke directly to him. You did neither. Their reasons had nothing to do with environmental impact - it was cultural, to be brief."  So in the end, after your lengthy diatribes blaming ACSD, you admitted that ACSD had nothing to do with the tribe's actual concerns.

You have some good ideas, but it is not helpful to add your own trolls and conspiracies.  

As with any 100% volunteer non-profit, ACSD is always in need of new people and energy.  Maybe someone who enjoys renouncing misinformation.

"I spoke directly to the tribal chairwoman, and the AF sent a Native American representative a year or so later who they opened up to, and I spoke directly to him. You did neither. Their reasons had nothing to do with environmental impact - it was cultural, to be brief."  So in the end, after your lengthy diatribes blaming ACSD, you admitted that ACSD had nothing to do with the tribe's actual concerns.

I spoke with the tribal chairwoman of the La Jolla Tribe regularly for a year and a half, Tom. You’re full of shit, you and the ACSD board have no clue what went on in my communications with her and the tribe. I also spoke to the AF representative, never in person however. And your slimy effort to rewrite ACSD “leadership’s” history of underhanded opposition to my access effort is more weaksauce. The tribe told the AF rep there was a looted burial ground involved in their decision, that is what I was told directly by him. The exact location was never discussed.

The fact remains that before that information was revealed, Jeff Brown, ACSD’s top executive, and his environmental activist wife, had secret meetings with his hand picked board of directors to organize opposition to my access effort with the Access Fund, based on bogus endangered species claims. This was after I asked Jeff to keep our effort confidential due to the sensitivity of the situation.

After that experience, your “evidence” of eagles nests at Corte and EP is suspect, and even if those are direct quotes from Forest Service data, I would call the history of eagle nests there “vague”. It is, however, another good example of your obsessive bird advocacy. Sean I have more direct knowledge of the cliffs at Eagle Peak than any other human on the planet. We never saw evidence of an eagle nest, let alone nesting activity, during our extensive development of the crag from about the year 2000 forward.

Dave Bittner insisted there were nests there and at Corte, just like you, and he was proven to be a fraud, also, a few years later in a court of law. It’s even possible that the scant evidence you cited was the product of more of his well documented dishonesty. For those that don’t know, Dave Bittner was the corrupt driving force behind the USFS attempt to close Corte Madera and Eagle Peak to climbing.

This is the true story of Dave Bittner:

datahttps://www.eastcountymagazine.org/eagle-expert-bittner-sentenced-probation-ordered-turn-over-missing-data

He received a $75,000 dollar grant from the USFS to helicopter monitor Golden Eagle nesting in San Diego County before our battle to protect EP and CM from blanket closures for eagle nesting. When we called bullshit on his claims, and filed a FOIA request, he refused to give the “data” that was the product of that grant to the USFS.

A couple years after we prevailed against the closures he initiated, this magazine article was published. And then a few years ago, he had a fatal rappelling accident at Bandy Canyon, here in San Diego, while maintaining an eagle nest monitoring camera.

Quite odd to still dispute the FACT of historical nesting at those locations.  And no one claimed that the eagles were still there by the early 2000s.  In fact that is the exact reason that ACSD including me unanimously objected to the CNF extreme closure proposals in early Jan 2007.  It was clear that they wanted a closure based on historical nesting from very long ago, not based on active recent nesting.    So your posts are, as usual, spurious rants.  You claimed that the CNF "never produced any documentation of Eagle nests, active or otherwise, at EP or CM."  Yet the documents prove there is massive evidence of historical nesting.  There are even more documents if you really were to look for the 1970s surveys, but of course you're not willing to question your false claims.  Your denial of facts speaks for itself.    The main surveys done by the CNF are by such respected biologists as Dr Pete Bloom and Tom Scott (UC) starting decades before Dave Bittner got involved.  Bittner is irrelevant to the FACT of historical nesting.  He continued illegal actions after the CNF disapproved his plans, and was prosecuted for that.  It is a silly diversion to attempt to claim that his faults reflect on all other respected biologists.

You claimed that people at ACSD convinced the tribe of bogus environmental issues.  In the first place, there are issues with that pristine location, and the one ACSD full founders vote was resoundingly to not support you.  You have never been able to accept that, 12 years later.  In the second place, you admitted on Jan 30 that the tribe voted against you because of cultural reasons, not environmental reasons.  So you contradicted your entire false narrative about ACSD.

You claimed that people at ACSD convinced the tribe of bogus environmental issues.  In the first place, there are issues with that pristine location, and the one ACSD full founders vote was resoundingly to not support you.  You have never been able to accept that, 12 years later.  In the second place, you admitted on Jan 30 that the tribe voted against you because of cultural reasons, not environmental reasons.  So you contradicted your entire false narrative about ACSD.

I’ll just debunk your bullshit one more time and I’m done interacting with you. I never claimed that ACSD convinced the tribe of bogus environmental issues. Jeff, as leader of ACSD, the LCO, Local Climbing Organization, obstructed the AF’s effort to get permission from the BLM to climb on the cliffs on their land. The tribe requested that the AF do that before further considering allowing climbers to cross the LA Jolla Reservation to access the cliffs. The FACT that the tribe did that indicates at the time they were willing to work with us.

The top guys at the access fund, Brady Robinson, Jason Keith, and Jeff Theodorakis (Prana founder) withdrew from the access effort when Jeff intervened with his bogus endangered species objections. They didn’t want to be involved in a LCO’s internal squabbling. It took four months to resolve the issue locally within ACSD. This was a setback in our access effort and, I believe, made a bad impression on the tribe. 

ACSD, and Jeff never interacted directly with the tribe, and I never claimed they did. Jeff’s ongoing dishonesty and determination to thwart our effort could have led him to contact the tribe directly with his bogus endangered species story, without my knowledge, however. That is a distinct possibility.

Your claim that “the one ACSD founders vote was resoundingly to not support you” is absolute bullshit. In fact it was the opposite. Jeff’s secretive campaign to obstruct our access effort was unknown to the founders until I exposed it to all at the big meeting we had when I learned of Jeff’s subversion. I came forward with a chronology of my initial discovery of the climbing area, gaining of access, developing of routes, loss of access to a land ownership change, written proposals to the Rincon and La Jolla Tribes to request access, and finally Jeff’s undercover work to obstruct it. 

That all took place over a period of about 15 years, and no climbers other than a select few knew anything about the area until that meeting. I posed this simple question to the group, including nearly all of the ten or twelve founding members, at the end of the meeting : “Are we primarily an environmental protection group, or a climbers access group?” Nearly all founding members, except Jeff and Keli, of course, supported furthering our effort, I don’t know if you’re a founding member or not Tom, but I’m sure you didn’t. Why wouldn’t they? The area is the mother lode of high quality sport climbing, and bouldering in Southern Calif.

Im sure you’ll respond with more bullshit, Tom, I’m not going to further argue with a liar. The full story of what went down is an important part of San Diego’s climbing history, and I’ve told a lot of it in different chunks on this forum. I don’t have the time or desire to elaborate any further on it.

Some day local climbers will realize what an amazing climbing area It is. The AF and I tried our best to share it with all climbers - I think someday the LJ Tribe might reconsider. There are ways to access a lot of excellent climbing on public land without crossing the Reservation, if you’re willing to bust ass and bushwhack. The cliffs and boulders are there forever. One thing I learned in my interactions with the tribes is that change comes slowly in Native American culture.

Again your biased and selective memory has failed.  You presented your case to the Founders in a lengthy document and at the meeting.  Additional information of possible environmental issues was also discussed, all of which you reflexively denied.  Then we voted on whether to support your proposal at that time without a serious environmental review.  The vote from me and most of ACSD was a resounding NO.  That is from a group that generally is very pro-climber access.  In fact there were other climbers who did not join ACSD because they thought ACSD might be too pro-access.  A good question you ask is "Why wouldn't they [support you]? "  The answer is obvious yet you have denied it for 12 years.  They and we did not believe the environmental impact of bringing the masses to a pristine canyon could be summarily dismissed.  You are used to going to remote areas with few climbers which have not seen the huge impacts of climber crowds.
You then went forward and with the AF, made your case to the tribe.  The tribe voted against your proposal, despite the cursory approval from the BLM, and despite the tribe not being subject to many typical environmental rules.  You left ACSD.

HEY FELLAS! GET OVER IT!

I Yam over it, tom’s BS anyway, but i was thinking…

Since Tom is apparently the ACSD archivist, maybe he should copy the one and a half page summary I did of the area’s history, from discovery, thru development, mostly with Randy Leavitt, up to and including Jeff and Kelli’s efforts to sandbag my access effort. I used it to brief the founding members before the ACSD meeting where I confronted Jeff.

When Jeff read it he responded to the group with an email that called my brief a pack of lies, taking much the same stance as Tom’s here. When the group convened, I read my briefing out loud in five parts, and stopped after each part to give Jeff the opportunity to detail his accusations with specifically what I had written that was untrue. I also gave the group an opportunity to ask any questions they may have had. Only 3 people there out of about 30, myself, Sean Shannon, and Randy had climbed at the area over its 15 year development.

A few people asked questions, but Jeff just sat there silently, shaking his head, facing down at the table, propped up on his elbows. He was unable to confront me and back up his bullshit accusations in front of the group he was the leader of at any point my little speech.

I think it would be interesting to at least some San Diego climbers to read that briefing. It would tell the story far better than I have here. And shine a light on Tom’s dark delusions.

The minutes of that meeting would be interesting also, 

I lost my record of the proposals I made to the tribes and that summary brief when my hard drive crashed years ago, along with a few photos of the area. Recovery of the hard drive, if possible, has a quoted cost of $700 or more, but I plan to do it soon, and if successful, I will share.

would it be feasible to create a trail that starts at: 33.230249, -116.923453, then ends at the top of Hellhole Bluffs?  It would cross a small amount of private property before entering BLM land

Tried to bushwhack out there one time. Whitney east face car to car was easier. 

I’ve heard there’s bullet proof brush everywhere out there. And I was told by a La Jolla Band elder that “The Devil” lives in the San Luis Rey Canyon below, and his name is Tahquitch. He had never heard of Tahquitz Rock, but he had seen him twice in his lifetime. A flying ball of flames with a human face.

True Story