Ideas for mounting holds to granite

I know this sounds silly, but hear me out. We bought a house in the foothills last year quite a ways from the nearest gym that has a number of boulders on it, 12-18 feet tall (I have one that's closer to 30') that would be perfect for home bouldering. [EDIT: To clarify, these boulders are 100% on my private, 10 acre property. This is not public land, and these boulders currently serve no other use but would be great for a home gym.] However, most of the faces are too smooth above the starting holds--think Dawn Wall--or have features that slope down too steep to act as slopers. I have friends who climb V-way-beyond-me and send 5.13 on lead, that can't find a way up them. This is all granite; the rock quality seems good, there are areas we can climb on natural holds where we had to flake off a little choss but the rest was very solid. So we started discussing options to turn them into my home gym (I don't have space for an indoor wall.) One thought was carving holds/slopers with an angle grinder, but this seems limited--once they're in place, there's no changing the routes. One friend suggested using stainless steel threaded inserts with the same internal threaded diameter/pitch as a T-nut, using adhesive to hold the insert in the stone like a glue-in so I can bolt them on like a gym. That seems like my best bet so far but wanted to see if anyone here had other ideas. I'd worry that the adhesive could foul the internal threads making it hard to get a bolt in/out. I've seen tourist towns that have bouldering holds mounted to rocks and am wondering how they did it. Any suggestions?

Edited to add: If you feel the urge to comment on this thread simply to espouse your belief that the "ethics" of this is wrong, kindly keep your opinion to yourself, as I don't care about your opinion for what happens on my property. The "ethics" of climbing have changed drastically through the years; as a well-known guide from Estes Park once told me, "back in the day [at Eldo canyon], if people saw you hang-dogging a route, they'd slash your tires in the parking lot. If you fell, you were expected to come down, end of story. That's the ethics of climbing, and what's climbing without ethics?" Which I find to be elitist BS. I'm quite sure all of you hang-dog routes. So please keep your opinions on the "ethics" out of this discussion.

Edited to add pics. I know these rocks look like they have a lot of features and I was super-excited when we won the bid on the property. However, I spent last summer cleaning off a lot of lichen and clearing vegetation away from the faces, and discovered that what's climbable on natural holds is about 5.2-5.6 climbing at best. The hard stuff, you can start on good holds, but moving above is impossible due to the smoothness of the rock and the downward slope of all the features above--there isn't even a good positive sloper to get a bite on. So unless I want to stick to lapping 5.2-5.6, I need a solution. Note that I'm not talking about slapping holds everywhere; I'm talking about putting holds where they make sense to make the natural features more usable.

I know it's hard to get sense of size; in this pic, the top of my head is approximately where the almost-horizontal crack meets the pink band.

This formation (also below) is about 25-30' high. I'd also put some bolts in for some of this, as there are jagged rocks below that are angled and make it hard to keep a pad on, so a fall would be consequential.

The pic above and blow show a lovely overhung roof with an steeply angled base, again making it hard to place pads that will adequately protect, but would be great training.

I actually have several other areas farther out that I didn't take pics of, but are similar.

1/2" drop-ins work with typical climbing hold bolts. You just have to use relatively short bolts so they don't protrude further than the anchor is deep. I've used these on concrete structures before.

Edit to add, go with something like this:

https://www.aftfasteners.com/products/3-8-knurled-drop-in-anchor-304-stainless-steel-50-pkg.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw6dmSBhBkEiwA_W-EoM8udMwn7bg3LiVujso1_OVG4-dMNT2z4iXO7CnZmns1qcAJAVRdSRoCe6IQAvD_BwE

For what it's worth, if you wanted to use carbon steel just know that they can be pulled easily with a standard bolt puller and 3/8" rod stock.

Post this in the Wyoming Montana Dakotas forums.  Better insights. 

You could install 3/8" "drop-in" anchors (1/2" diameter holes), then bolt artificial climbing holds to the boulders. That provides the option of moving the holds around, making new routes or changing the difficulty according to your desires. I built an outdoor gym on a ranch in the mountains of Baja California, on a 10m granite cliff. Drop-in anchors are the perfect solution. It's also bolted for leading, using wedge anchors for pro. It's an attraction for visitors and a small source of income for the ranch. (Disclaimer before the hate starts: Near ranch houses on private property.) Will see if I can post a photo or two.

Edited to add:

Spend a little extra money to get stainless steel drop-in anchors. These drop-ins will be permanent, and you probably don't want rust streaks a few years from now. Buy them by the box; not that expensive. Hilti is the best quality. ITW RedHead and Powers are okay and lower priced. You will also need a setting tool (under $10). The holds will be bolted on with 3/8' Allen bolts (aka hex socket head cap screws. You can purchase various lengths to fit the depth hole in each of the holds, plus approx 1". Still, you may have to cut some bolts to the desired length.To save a little money, the cap screws can be zinc plated carbon steel rather than SS; just use a small dab of anti-seize compound or grease to the threads.

So I'm going to avoid judgement of the idea of putting holds on real rock and just try to engage in some harm reduction here.

If you manufacture holds with an angle grinder you are permanently altering the rock. You could simply drill 1/4" holes and install 1/4" concrete screws on the holds. This should work fine. Another potential option are "drop in" concrete anchors. These are threaded sleeves that expand when you put a bolt in them. I'm not sure how well they work, I reckon there's a reason we don't use them for bolts, but they might be appropriate for holds even if not for safety critical applications.

If the screws or drops in end up not holding the holds sufficiently tight (I doubt it, but a potential problem) you could potentially use 1/4" wedge bolts. I think the solutions that are already intended to fasten into rock make more sense than gluing in inserts. If you really are going to do this using concrete screws is the obvious place to start. 

I don't think it's my place to impose my ethics on others and there are lot of people who think that altering rock isn't that big of a deal and I think their arguments are well thought out and worth taking seriously. None the less a little reflection and discussion about whether or not permanently altering a public resource in this way is what y'all really want to do may be in order. Whether or not other users of public land are likely to encounter your makeshift gym is something else that should be considered-- if other people are likely to see it you should figure out a way to make it have minimal visual impact if you do go forward with it. Perhaps painting the holds grey, for example. If it's on private land then all this is a moot point.

I'm not keen on this idea but I think the idea has varying levels of harm it could do. Manufacturing holds sounds bad to me, and having a bunch of colorful holds in an area that is accessed by hikers and bikers also sounds bad. If it's really just a chosspile no one cares about that doesn't get accessed by people other than climbers and you put some thought into minimizing your impact then I think that's the best way to do this. If all you have are 1/4" holes then in 20 years if it isn't used by climbers any more the impact to public resources can actually be pretty minimal, as holes are easily patched and a little epoxy with dirt and rock dust makes covered bolt holes damn near invisible. 

You would be surprised on how well different epoxies stick to the rock. No mechanical anything needed. Its ugly as hell though.

 Personally I'd drill and carve, try and make it look natural. Use a torch even. I hear a guy in Tensleep WY is well versed in this.

nbrown's idea is on track, however the size info is wrong. Climbing holds are typically made with a 3/8" hole, and you will use a 3/8" coarse thread Allen head cap screw. The drop-in size = the size of the bolt. The hole/drill diameter will be larger. A 3/8" drop-in will have to be drilled to 1/2". Do not use his link; it is the wrong size.

Here's a link for Powers Dropin on Amazon (not saying it's the best price. Maybe try eBay for a deal).

Powers part #  06206-PWR

 https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Fastening-Innovations-06206-Stainless/dp/B00ITG7LOK

Ricky H wrote ..."These are threaded sleeves that expand when you put a bolt in them." 

Not true. Drop-in anchors are placed in the hole of a rather exact depth. A setting tool is inserted and hammered to seat an internal cone which expands the anchor within the hole. You can place as many as you like and later choose to place holds where you prefer. Grid bolt if you want, as if it was a sheet of plywood with Tee nuts for use later.

Edit to add: MP won't let me give the direct link. Search eBay "Powers 06206-PWR" $53 for new, open box, of 50 with free shipping. helluva deal

*While ultimate tension/pullout strength in 6,000 psi concrete is listed at 4,950 lbs. (1240 lbs allowable strength), I do not recommend drop-in anchors as appropriate for protection bolts or belay/rappel anchors. Though perfect for bolting holds to the rock.

Alec Baker wrote:

Wouldnt it just be easier to build a woody and use a boulder to hold it up?

Drilling all those holes in granite has to be more expensive than some plywood...

I highly doubt that would be cheaper. A few drill bits and concrete screws would be extremely cheap if you have someone with a rock drill. 

ClimbBaja wrote:

Ricky H wrote ..."These are threaded sleeves that expand when you put a bolt in them." 

Not true. Drop-in anchors are placed in the hole of a rather exact depth. A setting tool is inserted and hammered to seat an internal cone which expands the anchor within the hole. You can place as many as you like and later choose to place holds where you prefer. Grid bolt if you want, as if it was a sheet of plywood with Tee nuts for use later.

Edit to add: MP won't let me give the direct link. Search eBay "Powers 06206-PWR" $53 for new, open box, of 50 with free shipping. helluva deal

I learned something today. Thank you for the correction. 

Aesthetics are important with many things in life, this would fall into that category for me. Putting plastic all over the natural rock (like those photos above) would probably lower the value of said property.

Maybe my earlier point was too subtle… this is just wrong.   Don’t do this my friend.  

ClimbBaja wrote:

nbrown's idea is on track, however the size info is wrong. 

Yep. Link is fixed now.

Ricky Harline wrote:

So I'm going to avoid judgement of the idea of putting holds on real rock and just try to engage in some harm reduction here.

If you manufacture holds with an angle grinder you are permanently altering the rock. You could simply drill 1/4" holes and install 1/4" concrete screws on the holds. This should work fine. Another potential option are "drop in" concrete anchors. These are threaded sleeves that expand when you put a bolt in them. I'm not sure how well they work, I reckon there's a reason we don't use them for bolts, but they might be appropriate for holds even if not for safety critical applications.

If the screws or drops in end up not holding the holds sufficiently tight (I doubt it, but a potential problem) you could potentially use 1/4" wedge bolts. I think the solutions that are already intended to fasten into rock make more sense than gluing in inserts. If you really are going to do this using concrete screws is the obvious place to start. 

I don't think it's my place to impose my ethics on others and there are lot of people who think that altering rock isn't that big of a deal and I think their arguments are well thought out and worth taking seriously. None the less a little reflection and discussion about whether or not permanently altering a public resource in this way is what y'all really want to do may be in order. Whether or not other users of public land are likely to encounter your makeshift gym is something else that should be considered-- if other people are likely to see it you should figure out a way to make it have minimal visual impact if you do go forward with it. Perhaps painting the holds grey, for example. If it's on private land then all this is a moot point.

I'm not keen on this idea but I think the idea has varying levels of harm it could do. Manufacturing holds sounds bad to me, and having a bunch of colorful holds in an area that is accessed by hikers and bikers also sounds bad. If it's really just a chosspile no one cares about that doesn't get accessed by people other than climbers and you put some thought into minimizing your impact then I think that's the best way to do this. If all you have are 1/4" holes then in 20 years if it isn't used by climbers any more the impact to public resources can actually be pretty minimal, as holes are easily patched and a little epoxy with dirt and rock dust makes covered bolt holes damn near invisible. 

Thank you, and I appreciate that you recognize it is not your place to impose ethics, while chastising me for doing so. This is *not* public land. I have 10 acres, and these boulders are 100% on my private property. Had you really read my post you would see that. This isn't a public resource, it's my own land. I agree, I didn't want to 'shape' rock, as the holes can be filled in later if desired, and I want the ability to set various routes.

Ricky Harline wrote:

I highly doubt that would be cheaper. A few drill bits and concrete screws would be extremely cheap if you have someone with a rock drill. 

I learned something today. Thank you for the correction. 

Yes, I already have a high-quality hammer-drill, so what I'm looking to do would be much cheaper than building a woody. Plus, I'm at the top of a mountain at almost 8000'--the elements here are harsh, and an outdoor woody would need a lot of maintenance to prevent degradation.

Pete S wrote:

Maybe my earlier point was too subtle… this is just wrong.   Don’t do this my friend.  

Explain?? These are *my* boulders, on *my* land, 100% private property. No one is going to stumble across them as trespassing is not allowed on my property, and I vigorously enforce that. The gym is pretty far to get to on a regular basis, and I don't have space in the garage/house to build an indoor gym. I could of course build an outside wooden structure, but that will 1) degrade quickly in the elements and 2) be more expensive than what I'm considering. So why is this "just wrong"?

M M wrote:

Aesthetics are important with many things in life, this would fall into that category for me. Putting plastic all over the natural rock (like those photos above) would probably lower the value of said property.

Plastic can be removed (and would when I sell, after all, I want to keep my holds) and holes can be filled in such you can barely tell there was anything there. Also, these boulders are 100% hidden from all public view, no one can see them except from my house, so no risk of visually fouling public spaces. So thank you for stopping by but unless you have anything useful to contribute, kindly butt out.

Drew S wrote:

Thank you, and I appreciate that you recognize it is not your place to impose ethics, while chastising me for doing so. This is *not* public land. I have 10 acres, and these boulders are 100% on my private property. Had you really read my post you would see that. This isn't a public resource, it's my own land. I agree, I didn't want to 'shape' rock, as the holes can be filled in later if desired, and I want the ability to set various routes.

Got it. I read the post several times to try and understand if it was on public or private land and genuinely did not understand which it was, hence why I provided my call for reflection if it is a public resource. 

I am glad to hear it is privately owned. Have fun with your project. 

Edit to add:

A lot of people take defacing nature quite seriously. A lot of people point out that rocks aren't nearly as permanent features as we tend to imagine they are and therefore we should be much more worried about harming plant and animal life than rocks. I think that argument is pretty valid. None the less I and many others experience a strong desire to alter rock to the smallest extent possible. Whether or not the rock is privately or publicly owned doesn't change whether or not altering nature unnecessarily is OK. Obviously we alter rock faces to a certain extent for sport and even trad climbing, but there are general rules that have been set up like not manufacturing holds and altering the rock as little as is possible while still being safe. 

Your project sits outside of the unwritten rules of climbing, so you will naturally get a lot of pushback from people who don't want to see rockfaces altered in such a drastic way. Personally I would have reservations about doing this, but I also recognize it's your rock and not mine and I don't see it as my place to tell you what to do with your own property. Other people find it sufficiently destructive and against climbing ethics that it causes them to advise you against it. No one is disputing your legal right to do it, some people are simply arguing it is against climbing ethics. There is no singular climbing ethic, of course, so if you feel it is an ethical choice then I think there is nothing else to do but move on with our lives and let you enjoy your outdoor climbing gym.

Cheers.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Got it. I read the post several times to try and understand if it was on public or private land and genuinely did not understand which it was, hence why I provided my call for reflection if it is a public resource. 

I am glad to hear it is privately owned. Have fun with your project. 

Thanks for understanding, and I *do* appreciate your comments. My friends have been giving me suggestions but we're all kind of guessing what would work best. Also, I update my post to clarify this is all private property. I didn't think it was vague but always best to make sure.

Edited to add:

Ricky Harline wrote:

Edit to add:

A lot of people take defacing nature quite seriously. A lot of people point out that rocks aren't nearly as permanent features as we tend to imagine they are and therefore we should be much more worried about harming plant and animal life than rocks. I think that argument is pretty valid. None the less I and many others experience a strong desire to alter rock to the smallest extent possible. Whether or not the rock is privately or publicly owned doesn't change whether or not altering nature unnecessarily is OK. Obviously we alter rock faces to a certain extent for sport and even trad climbing, but there are general rules that have been set up like not manufacturing holds and altering the rock as little as is possible while still being safe. 

Your project sits outside of the unwritten rules of climbing, so you will naturally get a lot of pushback from people who don't want to see rockfaces altered in such a drastic way. Personally I would have reservations about doing this, but I also recognize it's your rock and not mine and I don't see it as my place to tell you what to do with your own property. Other people find it sufficiently destructive and against climbing ethics that it causes them to advise you against it. No one is disputing your legal right to do it, some people are simply arguing it is against climbing ethics. There is no singular climbing ethic, of course, so if you feel it is an ethical choice then I think there is nothing else to do but move on with our lives and let you enjoy your outdoor climbing gym.

Cheers.

I, too, take rock defacement seriously. I've been climbing regularly since 2007, all over, including the now-closed Cochiti Mesa in New Mexico where some people thought chipping holds was a-ok. I don't, which is why I'd rather go with a lower-impact solution than carving or shaping rock, like the previously-mentioned person at Ten Sleep. I feel like the way I'm trying to come at it is lower impact, give me a chance for variety, and is easy to "spackle" when no longer desired. Plus, I live on 10 acres on top of a mountain. NO ONE can see these boulder but me, so there's no "visual pollution" or encouraging others to try such tactics on public rocks. It's purely because I don't have a space for an indoor gym, I'm kind of far now from the nearest indoor gym so am losing strength/ training because it's a hassle to get there, and as I now work from home it's easy to hop out to my boulders (the closest are roughly 50 yards behind my garage) to do a quick sesh over lunch or between appointments. And I have close friends with little kids who come to visit, and having a home private wall with short-but top-rope-able routes that would be fun when they visit. I already have a zip line and a slack line on the property (left by the previous owners) but that only entertains them for so long. I feel like the solution I'm looking at is the least-drastic way to meet my needs and is reversible when desired.

nbrown wrote:

1/2" drop-ins work with typical climbing hold bolts. You just have to use relatively short bolts so they don't protrude further than the anchor is deep. I've used these on concrete structures before.

Edit to add, go with something like this:

https://www.aftfasteners.com/products/3-8-knurled-drop-in-anchor-304-stainless-steel-50-pkg.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw6dmSBhBkEiwA_W-EoM8udMwn7bg3LiVujso1_OVG4-dMNT2z4iXO7CnZmns1qcAJAVRdSRoCe6IQAvD_BwE

For what it's worth, if you wanted to use carbon steel just know that they can be pulled easily with a standard bolt puller and 3/8" rod stock.

nbrown wrote:

Yep. Link is fixed now.

Thanks very much for this suggestion, it was something I was unfamiliar with. My friends and I have experience working on vehicles including repairing stripped threads with threaded inserts, but not trying to put anchors in rock, so didn't have a good idea beyond threaded inserts. And I wasn't sure what threaded inserts can actually hold in dynamic forces, as they're not designed for that application, hence my question. I very, *very* much appreciate your help!

ClimbBaja wrote:

nbrown's idea is on track, however the size info is wrong. Climbing holds are typically made with a 3/8" hole, and you will use a 3/8" coarse thread Allen head cap screw. The drop-in size = the size of the bolt. The hole/drill diameter will be larger. A 3/8" drop-in will have to be drilled to 1/2". Do not use his link; it is the wrong size.

Here's a link for Powers Dropin on Amazon (not saying it's the best price. Maybe try eBay for a deal).

Powers part #  06206-PWR

 https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Fastening-Innovations-06206-Stainless/dp/B00ITG7LOK

Ricky H wrote ..."These are threaded sleeves that expand when you put a bolt in them." 

Not true. Drop-in anchors are placed in the hole of a rather exact depth. A setting tool is inserted and hammered to seat an internal cone which expands the anchor within the hole. You can place as many as you like and later choose to place holds where you prefer. Grid bolt if you want, as if it was a sheet of plywood with Tee nuts for use later.

Edit to add: MP won't let me give the direct link. Search eBay "Powers 06206-PWR" $53 for new, open box, of 50 with free shipping. helluva deal

*While ultimate tension/pullout strength in 6,000 psi concrete is listed at 4,950 lbs. (1240 lbs allowable strength), I do not recommend drop-in anchors as appropriate for protection bolts or belay/rappel anchors. Though perfect for bolting holds to the rock.

Thank you so much for this *very* helpful information! I'll start exploring this now. I really appreciate your help!!

Lurker - wrote:

Sounds like the boulders are on his property.

Also let's see some pics! We talking slabs, vert, overhanging? 

All of the above, though pretty much vert and overhanging. Once you get to the upper slab above the vert, it's more like a slightly steep walk-off. I'll post some pics.

Aaron K wrote:

Public or private, I think it's a horrible idea. 

The boulders will far outlast your ownership of the land. Leave them be.

Big Red wrote:

This.

Thank you both for stopping by, but I don't really care about your opinions on the ethics. What I'm considering is easily reversible to the point no one would be able to tell it was done. To claim I shouldn't modify natural features of my own property "because the land will outlast your ownership of it" is to claim we shouldn't build houses, especially on mountains, because we're changing the  natural land/formations--and that's just dumb. 

If you don't have anything constructive to add other than your personal feelings, kindly keep them to yourselves.

Aaron K wrote:

The boulders will far outlast your ownership of the land. Leave them be.

This.

Drop in anchors for sure as mentioned above.

Another thing to consider is, if you have granite of particularly good quality (strong) you can countersink and drill holes in them to create your own natural holds. They will better blend with the rock and cost nothing but time to make. Only drawback is you can’t go too big (heavy) or too thin (brittle) with them. Old climbing gyms BITD used to do this a lot.

And the holes you drill can be filled with concrete (white/grey) epoxy putty. Throw a little granite dust on them and texture appropriately before you sell property and nobody will ever know. 

In addition to the climbing improvements on your property, with 10 acres (and rocky terrain) you could create some really technical mountain bike trails... 

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

Drop in anchors for sure as mentioned above.

Another thing to consider is, if you have granite of particularly good quality (strong) you can countersink and drill holes in them to create your own natural holds. They will better blend with the rock and cost nothing but time to make. Only drawback is you can’t go too big (heavy) or too thin (brittle) with them. Old climbing gyms BITD used to do this a lot.

And the holes you drill can be filled with concrete (white/grey) epoxy putty. Throw a little granite dust on them and texture appropriately before you sell property and nobody will ever know. 

Yes I'm sure he will do a real nice job patching a thousand holes he put in for a few zero star V1s! 

Really I think he just needed some attention after acquiring the property so lets applaud him? GO DREW!!!!

rock climbing wrote:

 You will get bored with it and climbing holds gets polished outside. 

Why don't you get or build one of those? https://eldowalls.com/pages/diy-bouldering-wall

Do you work for Eldo walls? 1) this isn’t what I want, and 2) polished holds teach good fucking footwork. Go climb Feline sometime. Tons of polish at Rifle, so I’m ok with practicing dealing with polish. Thrillseekers in Denver had the most polished plastic in the world—good training. Plus as I said, this wasn’t my question—I have quite a bit of climbable rock now that I have a solution.

M Montoya wrote:

Yes I'm sure he will do a real nice job patching a thousand holes he put in for a few zero star V1s! 

Really I think he just needed some attention after acquiring the property so lets applaud him? GO DREW!!!!

Are you okay? Having a bad day? Need a hug? Or are you always an emotional child? 

Never heard of drop-in anchors until I asked this question. Now I have. I have the answer I need, and as this is now just turning into yet another place for trolls to be fucking children, I'm going to lock it. Two to three helpful people out of a lot of replies. Yup, that's about my experience with the ratio of good people to assholes.