Any advice for Getting Good at Laybacks? (Besides climbing them outdoors obv.)

On Go Sparky Go

Every time one came up I would get way tired super quick. 

I'm wondering if my current technique is putting too much pressure on my arms because my feet are too high, or if I'm just going to slow and stopping too much to place gear (the one route that comes to mind I was placing every 3-5 feet, shown in pic below on left).

Besides working on my mental game, I'm hoping to get some exercises of way to train laybacks when away from the rocks. 

One friend recommended I use the steel I-beams under our university's stadium to practice. Any other solid suggestions? Is it possible to set up something similar in the gym?

the final push of Divide and Conquer (crack is wide 3s all the way to #5)

Boulderers always layback. Try that?

Im pretty sure I didnt layback go sparky go when I climbed it.  Do you feel like your crack/jamming technique is solid, or do you revert to the layback when a jam would work?  Maybe better crack technique overall would require less laybacking. My apologies if you are already a crack master.

To answer one of your questions, keeping your feet higher feels more secure when laybacking, but definitely makes more work for the arms.  

If the creek is your goal, I would not recommend practicing laybacking all that much, just work on straight up crack climbing hard sizes (off fingers and wide).  I do like your I-beam idea as a way to practice though.  Happy crack climbing!

I once watched a 5.12 sport climber lieback The Fox in RR, made it look way harder than 10+.

Finding that sweet spot between the upper pull and lower push is key, along w/ going straight arm the entire time to minimize pump. 

Climb more laybacks outdoors.

being ancient and decrepit, I need to conserve what little strength I have.  straddling/stemming across a corner with my feet takes a load off my hands/arms.   learning this has enabled me to still get up stuff that wasn't  all that easy thirty years ago. when I could not count my pullup capacity on the fingers of one hand.

-Haireball

Laybacks are a weakness of mine but I have learned a few things from the times I have been successful. 

Strategize better for layback sections by spotting gear and stances ahead of time. Climb quickly between those stances and gear placement. Stop as infrequently as your safety margin allows. 

Relax your grip and try not to lock off unless it's required for progression or placements are finicky. 

Samuel Parker wrote:

Besides working on my mental game, I'm hoping to get some exercises of way to train laybacks when away from the rocks. 

I use a corner on the outside of my garage near where the overhead door opens.  It forms a pillar like section about 2 feet wide. There's a small lip about 1/2'' wide at foot level. I  I just stand on the lip (with an edge of my climbing shoe), wrap my fingers around the one of the corners and pull in and go back out with my fingertips.  Chest basically scraping against the vertical surface.  It's not as strenuous as a vertical crack put you can do reps and sets, so it puts some exercise on the right muscle groups.  Just look around, you'll find something...

I’d say get better at jamming the sizes that you would typically layback and reserve that technique for when it’s easy than jamming. Example: slightly offset splitter in off fingers. Way easier for me to layback .5-.75 if I’m able, than it is for me to jam it.

work on sport climbing. Been focusing on boulders/sport the last year and trad has gotten much much easier, especially when having to layback. That said, I started with a base of onsighting most straight in 5.12s (not OW) and 5.11 OWs I’ve tried in the creek and most 5.11s I’ve tried in Yosemite.

Nathan Bilthuis wrote:

I’d say get better at jamming the sizes that you would typically layback and reserve that technique for when it’s easy than jamming. Example: slightly offset splitter in off fingers. Way easier for me to layback .5-.75 if I’m able, than it is for me to jam it.

This seems to be the best answer.  And  general improvement in crack technique. Your second example says the crack was #3-#5 most of the way, which is a size you should be able to get a foot in to stand on most of the way, at least enough to get a lot of weight off your arms.  I'm no crack master, but from my experience there are routes I can remember doing when I first started climbing outside where I would lieback large sections where now I use better and more efficient technique to stay more in the crack.  

shredward wrote:

Im pretty sure I didnt layback go sparky go when I climbed it.  Do you feel like your crack/jamming technique is solid, or do you revert to the layback when a jam would work?  Maybe better crack technique overall would require less laybacking. My apologies if you are already a crack master.

To answer one of your questions, keeping your feet higher feels more secure when laybacking, but definitely makes more work for the arms.  

If the creek is your goal, I would not recommend practicing laybacking all that much, just work on straight up crack climbing hard sizes (off fingers and wide).  I do like your I-beam idea as a way to practice though.  Happy crack climbing!

I definitely prioritize jamming. These two routes were pretty much the only times I went into a layback. Maybe once or twice during transitions on other routes, but for the most part I was lined up with the cracks. 

On divide and conquer I actually tried jamming (was wide fists at that point), but it was slow progress and we needed to head out, so I opted for short bursts of laybacking and then hangdogging to recharge. 

Go sparky go just shut me down since I'm not the most familiar with ring locks yet. (Can do pretty much any other size besides those) Once I get outdoors more this season I'll try and find some routes that get me practiced on the more uncomfortable size jams. 

I do a lot of hybrid lieback/jamming at Indian Creek. 

When you have a good foundation of jamming and liebacking skills—discerning the sweet spot between tension and friction—you'll start to transition between the two in fluid motions (this is also helpful for offwidths). For example, on a route like Hydraulic Pump (a 5.12+ shallow corner with 1" to 1.5" crack), I'll make most of my upward progress by sprinting up the crack in a lieback. Then, when it's time to place pro, instead of smearing my outside (left) foot against the face of the corner for a lieback, I'll twist that foot into a high toe jam and rock onto it while setting a high right ringlock (right arm), giving me a more stable stance to place gear at my waist. It helps to anticipate these stances, such as a pod in the crack that offers a better foot jam.

As for transitioning between jamming/liebacking, the best bet is to get toprope mileage and experiment with that threshold of friction and balance to where you're just hanging on with minimal energy. It feels scary and insecure when you're not used to it, but after a while you will develop an intuition for that sweet spot, such as how high you can reach off of a smeared foot before it slips out from under you.

Have fun!

Derek F wrote:

I do a lot of hybrid lieback/jamming at Indian Creek. 

When you have a good foundation of jamming and liebacking skills—discerning the sweet spot between tension and friction—you'll start to transition between the two in fluid motions (this is also helpful for offwidths). For example, on a route like Hydraulic Pump (a 5.12+ shallow corner with 1" to 1.5" crack), I'll make most of my upward progress by sprinting up the crack in a lieback. Then, when it's time to place pro, instead of smearing my outside (left) foot against the face of the corner for a lieback, I'll twist that foot into a high toe jam and rock onto it while setting a high right ringlock (right arm), giving me a more stable stance to place gear at my waist. It helps to anticipate these stances, such as a pod in the crack that offers a better foot jam.

As for transitioning between jamming/liebacking, the best bet is to get toprope mileage and experiment with that threshold of friction and balance to where you're just hanging on with minimal energy. It feels scary and insecure when you're not used to it, but after a while you will develop an intuition for that sweet spot, such as how high you can reach off of a smeared foot before it slips out from under you.

Have fun!

Thanks D and everyone else! I'm headed down to Moab to climb this weekend, so I'll put all this advice to work of some solid corners and offset cracks! 

Love what you said about getting a jam for placing gear. I'll have to practice those transitions so I feel comfortable swapping back and forth