Double Ropes, Twin Ropes- what do people like

Looking for some gear beta on twin a double ropes.  A lot has changed over the years and I'm mostly interested in ideas for the lightest set up for long alpine rock climbing.  I'm planning for a couple big routes this summer that have a significant hike in, an all day wandery alpine route and many rappels off the backside for the decent.  I've never bought twin or double ropes- I've used them, just don't own them.  I'm looking for specific brands, how heavy/ light they are, opinions on diameter of rope.  Spray me down- what do you got.  Thanks! 

Unless you are climbing as a party of three, there seem to be few benefits of climbing with double ropes. See Colin Haley‘s post about climbing with a single and carrying a lighter weight rap line:

https://colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/?amp=1

FYI twins aren't really a thing anymore. Doubles are stronger and so light/thin these days there isn't really a point. Twins can't be much thinner than doubles already.

I think it totally depends on your situation whether you use a single and tag, or doubles. If there is rough rock then a single is more durable, if there is wandering/runout terrain then the doubles can be nice. Typically, I think of doubles for ice and single/tag for rock, the exception being British style trad. 

Sam Bedell wrote:

FYI twins aren't really a thing anymore. Doubles are stronger and so light/thin these days there isn't really a point. Twins can't be much thinner than doubles already.

I think it totally depends on your situation whether you use a single and tag, or doubles. If there is rough rock then a single is more durable, if there is wandering/runout terrain then the doubles can be nice. Typically, I think of doubles for ice and single/tag for rock, the exception being British style trad. 

Practically all doubles on the market are also rated as twins.  So you can choose how to use them.  

A few ropes are triple rated and you can use them as single, double or twin as you see fit.

I would definitely get dry treated ropes.  I climbed in a pair of non dry ropes last month and the rope drag was terrible.

Triple rated ropes are where things are at these days it seems (rated as singles, halves, and twins). 

I climb on Beal Operas (8.5 triple-rated, I have 50m lines) a lot in the Sierra and tend to like using just one when doing wandery easy/moderate stuff and carrying the other one on the follower's pack with the knowledge that a more committing pitch might arise or that it will save significant time to be doing full length rappels for the descent. This seems like the best option if you're not climbing on a single triple rated rope (i.e. Edelrid swift protect pro) with a nice skinny pull cord (something around 5-6mm), which is equally as efficient I feel.

Hope that helps.

A direct answer: I use and like the Beal Gully 7.3mm double ropes. Don't recall the g/m, but they're quite light and plenty of rad stuff gets climbed with them. Can be used as twins or halves, though I mostly employ them as twins. ("Double ropes" is a two rope system, which could be twins or halves.) The unicore is very reassuring, but I'd be even more stoked when they get kevlar in the sheath. Triple rated ropes will be less abrasion resistant owing to their smaller sheath percentage than either comparable singles or doubles (except the Edelrid protect ropes with kevlar in the sheath). Keep in mind that at the 7.3mm diameter you need a specialized belay device; I use the microjul.

Not knowing your intended application, I can't say if a single plus tag would make more sense. But when double ropes are the right tool, well...they're the right tool. Not endorsing one way or the other, but Andy Kirkpatrick has some ideas probably worth considering re: doubles vs skinny singles. 

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

The Beal Opera 8.5mm is triple-rated.  High-end alpinists are using one 'em as a single.  I have a pair which I use as half ropes, but since so many US climbers are unfamiliar with half rope technique (and so are likely to either not take advantage or screw everything up), I can still bring my halves and they can lead on a single strand or clip both strands if they want. I've been using 8.5mm halves for more than 30 years now and I'm personally comfortable with the weight trade-off, but I'm nothing remotely close to an elite alpinist, and I don't do walls anymore or climbs in which the second jumars the lead line or the party mostly simulclimbs,  situations in which you probably want a single lead line and a tag line.  I might add that I once had a rappel hang after coming free of the anchor and if we had been using a tag line rather than halves, we would have been stranded 800 feet off the deck.

Of course, double 8.5s are not the lightest system, so you might be motivated to go with either thinner halves in the 8mm range or ultra-skinny twins in the sub-8mm range.  Keeping things from tangling as the diameter goes down is increasingly challenging, and a few tangles could cut into most of the speed advantage you might have gotten by going thin and light, so pay close attention to rope management. I find the 8.5 diameter to be as robust as many single ropes and suitable for everything from half-pitch cragging to full-day multipitch rock or alpine, so I have just one set of ropes for everything.  I don't sport climb much, but use the halves for that too.  Among other things, they significantly mitigate the problem on some routes of blowing the second or third clip and decking.   The Operas are expensive, but not as much as owning multiple specialized ropes for someone like me who doesn't need ultimate specialization.

So a lot of it comes down to an honest appraisal of how you'll actually be climbing (sure, we'd all like to climb like Colin Haley but maybe that isn't the reality) and how you view the compromises between shaving grams and extra security, and whether you are willing to put in some time to learn how to handle, lead, and belay with half ropes.

The following summary from the piece by Andy Kirkpatrick referenced above by Derek is

I also think that double ropes should be viewed as the standard for trad and multi-pitch climbing, just like having two parachutes is viewed as standard. This might be harder for climbers who live in an area that has a culture of single ropes, but as soon as you start using two ropes, you will soon see all the advantages, both in ascent, descent and rescue.

Ain't gonna happen in the US...but individuals can still make choices...

bought Edelweiss performance rope (9.2) they are triple rated and unicore. 

I have used them for two days Ice climbing as twins and they are nice so far.

My reasons:

1. Triple rated- I can bring up two people easily, and twins for ice climbing make sense to me.

2. Easier than dragging a tag line into longer approaches.

I don’t think I will use them as a everyday rock route. But on wandering routes or select red point climbs, I see where they are useful. 

As always rgolds comments are spot on. I’ve climbed in the alpine, rock, ice, or rock and ice for many many years with Mammut 7.5 twins/doubles and think they are the ticket for routes of that type. Light, super compact, and extremely durable.  When the approach may take as many days  or more than the route, light, compact, and versatile is the way to go.

been using double-rope systems for alpine climbing since the late seventies, when the two strands were each 9mm.  been gratified to see tech progress from ropes that were either half or twin to ropes that could be both, & now to triple-rated.  my favorites have always been Edelrid - prefer the handling.   not a fan of the skinniest strands -  overlarge hands, feels like belaying with shoe-lace.  +-8mm my sweet spot.  excited to see advances in sheath tech.  happy to reiterate rgold's thoughts/

-Haireball

Its also im[ortant to choose the right colors  to get that proper Euro vibe ;) 

rgold wrote:

This might be harder for climbers who live in an area that has a culture of single ropes, but as soon as you start using two ropes, you will soon see all the advantages, both in ascent, descent and rescue.

Well, I live in California, where single ropes are standard, and I climbed using double ropes several times, because a member of my climbing club was from Spain and wanted to do that. No, I never saw any of the supposed advantages. It sucked big-time. The double ropes were heavier and bulkier than a single rope. They were a total, massive pain in the ass for rope management. It wasn't just twice as much rope management, it was much more than twice as much. Zero advantages. On none of the routes we climbed did it ever make sense to actually separate the ropes and clip one of the ropes into one piece of pro and the other rope into something else.

If all you want is to be able to do a two-rope rappel, there are better, lighter, easier ways to do that than climbing all day with a double rope setup.

The double-rope technique is like European pop music. Keep it away from the shores of America.

Ben Crowell wrote:

Well, I live in California, where single ropes are standard, and I climbed using double ropes several times, because a member of my climbing club was from Spain and wanted to do that. No, I never saw any of the supposed advantages. It sucked big-time. The double ropes were heavier and bulkier than a single rope. They were a total, massive pain in the ass for rope management. It wasn't just twice as much rope management, it was much more than twice as much. Zero advantages. On none of the routes we climbed did it ever make sense to actually separate the ropes and clip one of the ropes into one piece of pro and the other rope into something else.

If all you want is to be able to do a two-rope rappel, there are better, lighter, easier ways to do that than climbing all day with a double rope setup.

The double-rope technique is like European pop music. Keep it away from the shores of America.

"My hammer doesn't work to put in these screws, it's useless!!"

Ben Crowell wrote:

Well, I live in California, where single ropes are standard, and I climbed using double ropes several times, because a member of my climbing club was from Spain and wanted to do that. No, I never saw any of the supposed advantages. It sucked big-time. The double ropes were heavier and bulkier than a single rope. They were a total, massive pain in the ass for rope management. It wasn't just twice as much rope management, it was much more than twice as much. Zero advantages. On none of the routes we climbed did it ever make sense to actually separate the ropes and clip one of the ropes into one piece of pro and the other rope into something else.

If all you want is to be able to do a two-rope rappel, there are better, lighter, easier ways to do that than climbing all day with a double rope setup.

The double-rope technique is like European pop music. Keep it away from the shores of America.

Double rope fans rarely talk about the disadvantages.

Ben Crowell wrote:

Well, I live in California, where single ropes are standard, and I climbed using double ropes several times, because a member of my climbing club was from Spain and wanted to do that. No, I never saw any of the supposed advantages. It sucked big-time. The double ropes were heavier and bulkier than a single rope. They were a total, massive pain in the ass for rope management. It wasn't just twice as much rope management, it was much more than twice as much. Zero advantages. On none of the routes we climbed did it ever make sense to actually separate the ropes and clip one of the ropes into one piece of pro and the other rope into something else.

If all you want is to be able to do a two-rope rappel, there are better, lighter, easier ways to do that than climbing all day with a double rope setup.

The double-rope technique is like European pop music. Keep it away from the shores of America.

Okay Ben has spoken for all California climbers now, we can call it a day. Could you make your comment sound more arrogant please? It’s not doing it for me…

I totally prefer to use a single rope on single  and half pitch climbs. I also prefer multi pitch with bolted stations to be set for a single 70.  Any kind of splitter crack is easier with a single rope than doubles. doubles are better for me on  most  multi pitch adventure climbs and all multi pitch ice.    YMMV . Doubles really suck on short climbs or long climbs with short pitches. they also suck on splitters because you get your foot and the rope stuck in the crack twice as often.   FA's are easier with a single and a tag. climb on the single  and pull up the drill, extra gear etc.  with the tag The same folks who love to bash doubles often climb 20m sport with 70m ropes so everyone is kind of full of poo regardless of which camp your in.  On multi pitch unknown trad doubbles are great for me. lots of options for self rescue and easy bailing.  On easy alpine a single half rope is the ticket.    Doubles are a really, really bad choice if you are not competent with them. 

I have the Beal Ice line 8.1mm (60m). Use them for ice & multipitch (and perhaps the odd wandering/long single pitch crag where doubles might be useful). What I like about them:

• Dry treatment. Because of ice mostly. But even then it's a nice plus and they do handle quite nicely.
• Thin enough to not be too cumbersome
• Good compromise imo between thin and durable

Falls are really soft, but be aware of rope stretch (vs single ropes). I see the point of triple-rated ropes... although personally I'm pretty happy with the doubles. It's a little less versatile than triple rated ones, however I can't really recall a climb where I was like "gosh, I wish those were also twin/single rated". BUT I do get thinner ropes than I would have for triple-rated ones. And if I take the pain to carry 2 ropes, then might as well enjoy full benefits, imo.

Then as Ben said (!!!) there are disadvantages.... initially. Of course nothing that can't be overcome with a bit of practice. For instance yes tangles can be an issue, but it nothing that careful rope management cannot negate. The flexibility for raps and wandering routes more than pays for it imo.

 I never used a tag line however so I can't compare to that approach.

If you are climbing a long alpine rock route as a party of two, I think a single and a tagline are usually preferable.  If you are climbing a popular route in North America where half ropes are preferable, someone will usually mention it.  

If you are climbing as a party of three, half ropes give the leader the ability to belay each follower in parallel.

Skinny ropes that are designed to primarily be used as twins are usually best for ice and snow routes, where you don’t have to worry about sharp rocks damaging the ropes, and the additional rope doesn’t add as much friction.

Ben Crowell wrote:

Well, I live in California, where single ropes are standard, and I climbed using double ropes several times, because a member of my climbing club was from Spain and wanted to do that. No, I never saw any of the supposed advantages. It sucked big-time. The double ropes were heavier and bulkier than a single rope. They were a total, massive pain in the ass for rope management. It wasn't just twice as much rope management, it was much more than twice as much. Zero advantages. On none of the routes we climbed did it ever make sense to actually separate the ropes and clip one of the ropes into one piece of pro and the other rope into something else.

If all you want is to be able to do a two-rope rappel, there are better, lighter, easier ways to do that than climbing all day with a double rope setup.

The double-rope technique is like European pop music. Keep it away from the shores of America.

The quote incorrectly attributed to me is from Andy Kirkpatrick.

I mentioned the weight and handling issues in my response, and it is certainly true that inexperienced folks can screw up the handling, and, as I said, the potential for tangling seems to increase as the diameter decreases. While I confess to getting ropes of all types and diameters tangled from time to time, I don't think that, in general, I've had worse problems with half ropes as opposed to singles, so it may be that experience is the missing ingredient.

As Ben says, he never saw any of the supposed advantages, which of course doesn't mean there weren't there.  And if he climbed with someone from Spain, the chances are they were used to twin rope technique, not half rope technique, so his partner might not have been a decent source of knowledge and indeed might not have known anything much about how to deploy half ropes.  In any case, one probably needs more than a few pitches for the advantages of half ropes to emerge.

I think the primary application of half ropes is for adventure climbing, especially steep face climbing as opposed to uniform cracks, where the leader isn't exactly sure where the route goes and where and how good the pro will be, Climbs that are rehearsed and/or pre-inspected may not benefit as much, although half ropes still provide safety margins for marginal pro, difficult clips, and protecting the second on traverses, as well as the oft-cited ability to reduce rope drag on wandering pitches. There is also another issue, which is that the belayer has to be up to the task of effective rope management, otherwise many advantages of half ropes are lost. If I may be just a bit snide, the Grigri generation isn't used to the required level of attention and may or may not adapt to it.



I agree with Nick that there is little value in using half ropes for splitters; the extra rope just gets in the way of such things. I don't agree that half ropes aren't useful for short pitches, and I suspect the entire British Isles might beg to differ on that point as well.

Yes  but the  British are  bat shit  crazy.  If they can't  figure out how to climb a 50ft pitch  without 400ft of  rope  perhaps they are overthinking it. Most of the folks  I  know in the northeast use half ropes on multi pitch ice.  The  new ropes are  super  light,  skinny and  double  rated. I would  never  buy a set  of  just twins.   Mammut  makes  7.4mm that are  twins and half ropes.  BTW on the  occasions that I find myself at a 20m crag with a set of half ropes I usually either fold one rope in half and use it as a half/twin or if the climbing is easy enough I just use one of the half ropes as  a single.

I pretty regularly use half ropes on long routes where I will be rapping off for the descent.  This is especially true if I'm setting up my own rappel anchors.  

The weigh of a single rope + tagline is pretty close to that of 2 half ropes, and I like the versatility of being able to clip alternate ropes if needed.