Time to jumar 350 ft

The other day I jumared 350 ft and had to pass 1 knot.  Both ropes were dynamic.  This took me almost 50 minutes to ascend.  According to online, others I have seen do this same route took 40-50 minutes as well.  Everyone in my party took about 40-50 minutes to ascent the 350 ft.  Considering how fast some people are, this seems ridiculously slow.  How long do you think this should reasonably take?  

I would appreciate any tips to speed things up.  Here was my setup:

I started off using a right hand ascender as my upper and a camp turbo chest ascender as my lower.  This worked ok on the lower more overhung sections, but I found my biceps got tired quickly and the amount of rope weight wasn't enough to feed smoothly through the turbo.   When I hit the middle knot I switch to the hand ascender as my upper and a grigri 3 to 1 as my lower.  I didn't go up the rope as fast, but I was just as fast due to the top wasn't free hanging and my arms appreciated the 3 to 1 on the grigri.  When I switched to the grigri, instead of using my aiders and standing up with my legs, I found myself doing more hip thrusts to gain elevation.  

Maybe this is useful for you:

Jumaring basics
https://youtu.be/_vkiG2K9cFg

Jugging Overhanging Terrain
https://youtu.be/DHup6TFx_Q0

Terry E wrote:

Maybe this is useful for you:

Jumaring basics
https://youtu.be/_vkiG2K9cFg

Jugging Overhanging Terrain
https://youtu.be/DHup6TFx_Q0

The guy in the first video, flys!

Good grief. You're crazy to do a Yosemite-style jug up so much free-hanging rope.  My biceps are turning to jelly just thinking about it. Fortunately, there is a Better Way. And it's right here on this forum. Please reply to the post so others can see it:

Jugging the Froggy Way by Dr. Piton

And should you wonder how efficient this system is, a couple years ago at age 60 and off the couch, I jugged a 200m free-hanging rope in Mexico in under 23 minutes.  That's, like, 660 feet, eh?  The first 350 feet would have taken me around 11 minutes.  

You can read the story of my 200m froggy jug here - definitely worth a read for ALL big wall climbers. And especially if you don't believe me. ;)   

A 200m Free Hanging Jug

Right then - go buy yourself a Croll ascender and Petzl Torse chest harness, and cut your time in half or better.  

Cheers, eh?
Dr. Piton

Keith Boone wrote:

The guy in the first video, flys!

^ Chris McNamara

Also this video;

Basic Ascender Set Up

https://youtu.be/nNqEdT8pDD0

Hey Terry,

The video Chris Mac is showing is for jugging and cleaning an aid pitch, not ascending a fixed free-hanging rope. If you try to jug 350 feet of free-hanging rope like poor old Keith above, yer gonna die! Or you will wish you had.

As for the guy "flying up the wall" in the first video, of COURSE he is. He's on the ideal slightly-less-than-vertical and feet-touching-the-wall situation. The Yosemite system is indeed faster than the Froggy system when your toes are touching the wall. That's easy. Jugging a free-hanging rope with the same system is hell on earth.

The whole problem with this post is that you are asking climbers how to ascend a free-hanging rope. And for the most part - as demonstrated by Chris Mac - they don't have a clue. Cavers on the other hand - those pale anemic offspring from the underworld - have nothing better to do with their time than to perfect their jugging systems, often in strange places like under bridges at night. Accordingly even a lard-ass caver like me using a Frog system will absolutely smoke the burliest of big wall musclemen using a Yosemite-style system on a long free-hanging jug.

There is not a single person on this forum - no matter how young, strong and fit you are - who [using a Yosemite-style jug system] can keep up to this this old fart [using a frog system with ankle cam] on a 350-foot free hanging jug. This is because one system is so much more efficient than the other, it more than compensates for age and lard-assliness. Although I would dearly love to see someone try! ;)

And it would have to include some beers as a reward... 

^ I hear you Pete, and totally agree. Cavers have the last word when it comes to jugging free hanging ropes, as do people with your level of experience! You generally have an assortment of the easy way to do things :-)

Thanks, Terry. Maybe I should write a book? 

Before I became a climber, I am a caver. 

I can't begin to count how many mini big wall tutorials I have given on this topic, most usually at the base of Zodiac and especially the Trip. Most important thing is to have the body ascender as low as possible. 

I’m sure that the Frog Technique is the superior method- but if you’re like most of us and you’ll only ascend 200+ft of free hanging rope like once a year(hopefully less)- it’s sort of a big commitment to set it up and learn to use it.. 

I’ve been shocked at how quick two of us got up a single free hanging rope (p1+2 Zod). I think a few little pointers can make it far less painful.. 

first get the tether length right.. not too long.. having a petzl adjust or similar is good for dialing in exact length.

I like to “push the Jugs”- for much of it I’ll barely have my hands in the grips- just palm the bottom- only push up and you won’t waste your guns doing work that legs should do..

Finally- use a Scissor Kick.. one foot slightly forward, one slightly back- center your mass between the feet- drive with the legs.. (edit) this involves clipping both ladders to the lower Jumar 

Peter Zabrok wrote:

Hey Terry,

The video Chris Mac is showing is for jugging and cleaning an aid pitch, not ascending a fixed free-hanging rope. If you try to jug 350 feet of free-hanging rope like poor old Keith above, yer gonna die! Or you will wish you had.

As for the guy "flying up the wall" in the first video, of COURSE he is. He's on the ideal slightly-less-than-vertical and feet-touching-the-wall situation. The Yosemite system is indeed faster than the Froggy system when your toes are touching the wall. That's easy. Jugging a free-hanging rope with the same system is hell on earth.

The whole problem with this post is that you are asking climbers how to ascend a free-hanging rope. And for the most part - as demonstrated by Chris Mac - they don't have a clue. Cavers on the other hand - those pale anemic offspring from the underworld - have nothing better to do with their time than to perfect their jugging systems, often in strange places like under bridges at night. Accordingly even a lard-ass caver like me using a Frog system will absolutely smoke the burliest of big wall musclemen using a Yosemite-style system on a long free-hanging jug.

There is not a single person on this forum - no matter how young, strong and fit you are - who [using a Yosemite-style jug system] can keep up to this this old fart [using a frog system with ankle cam] on a 350-foot free hanging jug. This is because one system is so much more efficient than the other, it more than compensates for age and lard-assliness. Although I would dearly love to see someone try! ;)

And it would have to include some beers as a reward... 

I have also started looking at tree climbers and rope access videos for free hanging stuff.  

Isn’t the Petzl Croll basically the same as the Camp Turbo?

I tried the Turbo, and I do NOT like it. The Croll is far superior.  

Keith Boone wrote:

The other day I jumared 350 ft and had to pass 1 knot.  Both ropes were dynamic.  This took me almost 50 minutes to ascend.  According to online, others I have seen do this same route took 40-50 minutes as well.  Everyone in my party took about 40-50 minutes to ascent the 350 ft.  Considering how fast some people are, this seems ridiculously slow.  How long do you think this should reasonably take?  

I would appreciate any tips to speed things up.  Here was my setup:

I started off using a right hand ascender as my upper and a camp turbo chest ascender as my lower.  This worked ok on the lower more overhung sections, but I found my biceps got tired quickly and the amount of rope weight wasn't enough to feed smoothly through the turbo.   When I hit the middle knot I switch to the hand ascender as my upper and a grigri 3 to 1 as my lower.  I didn't go up the rope as fast, but I was just as fast due to the top wasn't free hanging and my arms appreciated the 3 to 1 on the grigri.  When I switched to the grigri, instead of using my aiders and standing up with my legs, I found myself doing more hip thrusts to gain elevation.  

That sir, is slow as fuck.  Using the “Yosemite” method, no goofy chest or ankle shit, I did somewhere between 1100 and 1400 of free hanging jugging in 48 minutes.  Smoked the cavers.  Being young and strong does have its advantages.

What Quinn said!

Friend and I were practicing on a free-hanging 60 meter line last summer at our local choss pile. Took me about 15 minutes the first burn and my biceps were cooked. Adjusted my upper jug tether shorter and cut the time down to 6 minutes. So don't underestimate the importance of very small adjustments!

Only one ladder needed, it goes on the lower jug. The Yates ones have an elastic strap on one of the steps so your foot never falls out. Rock your weight over that lower foot, push hard and shoot the upper jug as high as it will go. Try to pull with arms as little as possible (easier said than done)

Disclaimer: I'm a noob

The Dawn Wall abseil rope (~2650') has been ascended in around 45 minutes. It's safe to say they were not using the 'Yosemite method'. 

duncan... wrote:

The Dawn Wall abseil rope (~2650') has been ascended in around 45 minutes. It's safe to say they were not using the 'Yosemite method'. 

This would be an easy thing for someone, who has a copy of “The Dawn Wall” movie, to check. Looking at “Behind The Scenes Of The Dawn Wall Film” on YouTube, the riggers and filmmakers appear to be using “the Yosemite method“ to ascend fixed lines.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yk9-HLJPm6w

Pete might have more info about the above question, as I remember he was on the wall around the time of one of the final ascents, and descended some of Tommy and Kevin’s fixed lines to avoid an incoming storm.

McNamara's method in action (2 time stamps of the same video):

https://youtu.be/chJjIaTlZXU?t=287

https://youtu.be/chJjIaTlZXU?t=1020

Frog system as mentioned by Pete:

https://youtu.be/T5VqsAGc6A4?t=355

I used a combination of the two by swapping out an aider for a foot ascender, and got results similar to the frog system video while cleaning some pitches on the Nose.  My partner might have some footage of me, but hasn't uploaded anything yet.  The frog system is extremely efficient because it keeps you upright and in line with the rope.  Your legs do all the work -- it felt no harder than climbing stairs.  I just learned this method by hanging a rope at my local crag and playing with this technique for an hour on the day before I used it on El Cap.  You'll need a foot ascender at the minimum.

^ Chris, which foot ascender were you using? I hope your buddy can post some video. I’m interested to see this.

Terry E wrote:

This would be an easy thing for someone, who has a copy of “The Dawn Wall” movie, to check. Looking at “Behind The Scenes Of The Dawn Wall Film” on YouTube, the riggers and filmmakers appear to be using “the Yosemite method“ to ascend fixed lines.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yk9-HLJPm6w

Pete might have more info about the above question, as I remember he was on the wall around the time of one of the final ascents, and descended some of Tommy and Kevin’s fixed lines to avoid an incoming storm.

My original post was misleading. This has nothing to do with Dawn Wall the route.

At various times groups of rappllers have rigged a rope down El Cap. in the general area of the Dawn Wall and done their thing.

On one occasion the free-hanging rope was ascended in ~45 mins. (I can't find the source for this but Hans Florine told me about it when we were discussing Nose speed records) 

Terry E wrote:

^ Chris, which foot ascender were you using? I hope your buddy can post some video. I’m interested to see this.

I used a Petzl Pantin to cut down on weight, but Pete likes the CMI better, and tree people like the Notch Jet Step with its dual cam action.  You'll have to figure out which foot you want to use as the Pantin and CMI are left/right specific.  The Jet Step is ambidextrous.

^ Yes, if you are talking about speed rappelers rapping El Cap on a single rope, using break bar systems, I’m sure they are using the frog method for ascension. They are generally cavers.

I’m sure that the Frog Technique is the superior method- but if you’re like most of us and you’ll only ascend 200+ft of free hanging rope like once a year(hopefully less)- it’s sort of a big commitment to set it up and learn to use it.

Actually, it's not as big an investment as you think.  You don't have to buy a Croll - a Basic or even a regular handled ascender will work, as long as you turn it flat against your body and mount it as low as possible.  A Petzl Torse harness is the best twenty bucks you'll ever spend, but you can improvise something with a double-length sling.  Even for two hundred feet, it's worth converting.  You'd really be shocked at how fast you can climb with a frog system.  

I’m sure they are using the frog method for ascension.

I'm sure you're wrong. ;)  They are using a caver-specific ropewalking system. It's fast, but incredibly involved and takes a long time to attach and detach from the rope. It's not practicable for big wall climbing, unless you're doing what they do. My frog plus ankle cam would get me up 350 feet faster, simply because it goes on and off the rope easily.  

If you know that you're doing a route like the Trip, and likely to jug a long section of free-hanging rope, it's best to practise practise practise ahead of time in order to get your system dialed.  As pointed out above, the smallest tweaks can make huge improvements to your efficiency.

I reposted the photo from above.  Have a look. It appears as though buddy has tied backup knots while jugging a fixed rope.  DON'T DO THIS!  You are making life SO much harder because you are lifting the weight of rope. When you are jugging a fixed rope, you aren't lifting ANY weight. Let it hang, man.

You only need to tie backup knots when you are cleaning a pitch, because you are taking your ascenders on and off the rope to pass a piece. When you are jugging a free hanging rope, the rule is simple - two points of attachment at all times. If you are passing a free-hanging knot, tie a loop in the rope and clip in while you are passing the knot.

It's not difficult to convert your Yosemite-style jugging system to a Frog. You don't need to buy a lot of gear. You just need some ingenuity, and then you have to go out and practise. Trust me, it will be worthwhile, and you will be thanking yourself on that next long free-hanging jug.

It's easy to practise. Set your rope up through a carabiner high on a tree - like you see in the photos below - and practise climbing the entire ropelength without stopping. This can be a bit tricky with a Frog, because if you don't have the weight of much rope hanging beneath you, the Croll will sometimes not autofeed, depending on how worn the teeth are on your Croll, and how flexible your lead rope is. The way you fix that is by tying a dedicated foot loop as seen here, that fits BOTH your feet, so that as you're jugging, you can squeeze the rope with your feet as you stand up to make it autofeed through the Croll.

One obvious inefficiency in the photo above is how high the lower ascender is sitting on her harness.  I think this was a new harness we were trying out, which is riding too high.  The important thing is that the Croll be mounted as LOW as possible on your harness.  Caving harnesses are specially designed to make this happen, and it's never as good with a climbing harness because there isn't a low point of attachment.  So tighten up your leg loops a bit and mount that Croll LOW.  

Another photo of the same place - the higher your point of suspension, the more weight of rope you can have beneath your feet to help it autofeed.  Try it with and without your ankle cam.

Using the “Yosemite” method, no goofy chest or ankle shit, I did somewhere between 1100 and 1400 of free hanging jugging in 48 minutes.  Smoked the cavers.  Being young and strong does have its advantages.

I'd love to have seen that!  That is caver speed on a Yosemite system.