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Am I on Belay?
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My partner and I are at the base of climb. It’s granite. It’s splitter. It’s sick. He does a final check on his harness. Alpine draws jingle. Hexes jangle. I step over the boulder at the base of the climb to check his knot. He checks mine. “Looks good,” he says. I tap the locker and yank the rope twice. The gri-gri catches. “On Belay,” I say. “I’m not on belay until I have a piece of gear in,” he snarls, and off he goes, scrambling up the easy climbing to the base of the splitter hand crack. He slaps both hands on the crack and starts lie backing. One hand over the other, he climbs. After a few feet, he stops and shakes out his right hand. Grunting, he pulls .75 off his harness and sticks it in his teeth. His left arm shakes as he holds his entire body weight. With his free hand, he shoves the cam blindly into the crack. It doesn’t fit. He tries to put the cam back but fumbles the hand off with his harness. The cam whizzes past my ear and cracks against the boulder. I watch the metal tumble down the steep and mossy talus field sloping away from the base of the climb. “You got this!” I shout. I lift my arms to spot him. His feet are just out of reach of my outstretched palms. “Watch me!” he cries. So, I do. I watch him. Watch him fall gracefully, with his arms flailing over his head and his back arched and spine perfectly exposed to the boulder at my feet. Not today, I think, and shove him as hard as I can to redirect his fall. He sails over the boulder. The force throws me back against the crag wall. I spring forward to spot where he has landed. He tumbles like a rolling a stone down the hill. Moss flies everywhere. The rope goes taut. I lean back and throw a boot against the boulder. He jerks to a stop. Pulls me forward a step, takes one final roll, and disappears behind a fallen tree. I can’t see him. I can only see the bright orange rope curling through the roots. I can’t see him, no matter how hard I try, so I give the rope a tug and another tug, harder this time. Then, heaving with all my might, I give one more heroic tug and shout—“On Belay!” |
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If you're connected with rope you're "on belay". The belayor is the "first piece". |
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Did you see this thread? https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121866761/what-do-you-mean-when-you-say-on-belay |
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didn't happen ... |
FrankPS wrote: I may have written this before I saw the thread was locked.. |
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Correlation does not infer causation. Faulty argument. Next. |
Jacob Wilson wrote: Very nicely written! For all the crap I got on the other thread, I actually truly am a "not on my watch" belayer, just for the record. Funny true story, from a few years ago: I took a couple friends to City of Rocks, their first visit. We were camped up at Twin Sisters, so we took the opportunity to climb the nearby stuff. It was myself, another newish climber, and my 5.12ish climber friend, so the rope gun easily ran ropes up anything we noobs had any chance of climbing. Nearby was a two pitch slab, easy peasy 5.5 trad, so off we went. Climber racked up, tied in, belayer got ready, all was good. The belayer ended up feeding a full pitch of slack out, as he climbed. It turned out that the anchor was pretty much it for pro! We were both laughing at how useless the belay was. But? Even then? It still kept both partners on the same page. The rope was managed, kept in line and unknotted. We were both ready to second up, etc. And yeah, if he had somehow gone ass over teakettle, we'd have done everything possible to mitigate the consequences. "On belay" is a command, sure, and gyms can be futzy about how it's used. Far more important, it is also an attitude. From the first time climbing partners meet up, until everyone is safe back home. What we really rely on? "I got you!" Best, Helen EDIT to add, if your story was true, I'd say don't yank on an injured person you can't even see. Start the rescue process.... |
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Why do people lock threads? Probably same people who insist on the proper time to say “on belay”. Once you do your checks, are connected by rope, and the belayer starts feeding/managing rope, you’re “on belay”. Many scenarios just like Jacob illustrated. But, to be honest, I don’t say “Climbing” till I’m at the crux. Then my belayer says “climb on” *************************************************** As a leader asking the question, “on belay?”, you are not asking if you are safe in a fall, as that is your job with the protection scheme, gear placement, and proper clipping (no z’s, no backs, etc). If you’re confused about this, turn in your lead certification card. You are asking if the belayer is ready to do THEIR job of rope management, feeding and locking off as appropriate. That is what “belay is on” means. The rope and I are ready for you to go do whatever it is you plan to do. The state of being “on belay” is solely a function of the belayer’s actions and attention, not a function of clipping. You can be clipped through several pieces and still not be on belay. Waiting till the first clip is simply nonsensical. It’s a misguided situational and semantic statement of the obvious. The goal is a readiness check between partners before leaving the ground. Not an announcement of the current state of the progress of the climb. If that’s what you’re after, then with each clip do you announce the new fall factor? Or call “off belay” as you botch the second clip or reach FF1 off the deck as you fumble to get some gear in well above your first piece. And then call “on belay” again after safely clipping the next pieces. The continuous stream of bullshit that comes out of gyms never ceases to amaze me. |
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To continue pedantically “0n belay” is the question asked by the climber prior to climbing or uncliping from the belay anchor. Three syllables for clarity when the second is out of sight of the leader. “Belay on” or “on belay” is the verbal confirmation given by the belayer. Along with other cues like rope tugs etc. Followed by two syllable “climbing” And one syllable response “climb” Notice “up rope” is two syllables? “Slack” is one? Changing how you communicate on a top rope vs the first pitch vs multi pitch can be problematic when vision and hearing are limited. Long time partners can have their own secret handshakes. Gym climbers don’t deal with wind and long pitches with the climber out of sight. They can do whatever the management makes up. |
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I demand all my climbing partners follow valid TCP when communicating climbing commands. |
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This example demonstrates one thing. You panicked and defeated the cam on your gri gri. That’s why your partner ended up in a forest far far away. But, your story makes a good point nonetheless. |
Mark Pilate wrote: )-: mark, you hurt me from the original, original discussion--it was about a really really narrow interpretation of 'on belay'='i can catch you within a rope system'. in a lead belay proficiency test in a gym testing environment. that's really it. i feel like this entire discourse has really unnecessarily spiraled out of what was just a testing administrator's preferences in climber/belayer communications+commands for new lead belayers |
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Gym here has all of the top ropes prerigged. Grigri, to belay, tied figure 8, both with locking carabineers. Just make sure the other person is clipped in, has their harness on right side up (yes, I saw an upside down harness....not my partner, new peeps, hopefully getting a lesson, not a belay test. Yes, that's scary, lol), whatevers. But? That also means there is a prerigged, doubled over and fastened, "knot" in the end of the rope. Sometimes, the ropes are short enough that you only get each person clipped in, but there isn't -yet- anything at all for the brake hand to grab. My comment as a belayer, then? "You're kinda on belay. Can you climb up a move and hang a sec?" Then? Once the belay is functioning, I let the climber know. My regular partner and I always check everything, but rarely use the commands. Whenever I'm at a new gym, and will need to test, I just ask them what they want. What belay, what commands, etc. Honestly, if it got so picky that "on belay/belay on" being said "too soon" failed us on a test? I'd be wary of that gym. I fully understand having new employees, perhaps also new to climbing, and I support having simplified "rules" so they don't have to make judgement calls on what is and isn't allowed, but that would make me question the employee knowledge base entirely. Would they know when a rope needs replacing? Etc. Best, Helen |
Greg D wrote: Can anyone really defeat a fictional camming device? Or is it more likely that the gri-gri in the story just didn't really, truly believe in its ability to hold a fall, and thus defeated itself? |
Old lady H wrote: yeah this is never something i would fail anyone for, because agreed, it is super pedantic--it's not something to fail for. but i could understand making the caution/"correction" for someone new to lead belaying as a climber, so as to make sure that they have super clear boundaries/communication for what their responsibilities are in belaying & making sure that they know what their rope system is doing. like that's one of the reasons this whole extended discourse has me so confused. this is in a really controlled, single pitch environment with someone that is likely taking their first lead test. of course communication rules are going to change out in the real world! |
Erroll M wrote: Yeah, lead test is different for sure, and that's when you'd really want the staffer understanding lead climbing enough to assess the people testing. Last lead belay test I took was at a brand new gym, Elev8, in Travers City MI (great gym and great people, btw!). My friend and I went through easily, but were scratching our heads when the dude testing was fishing for one more thing. Finally, he just told us what he was looking for. "Look, it isn't absolutely necessary here, I can see your rope is way longer than needed for our gym, but it's good practice to always close the system by ty...." At which point? He was interrupted by me throwing my arms around him, telling him THANK YOU!!, and adding that he might, just might, have indirectly saved somebody's life someday by teaching even a gymby to close the system. Hundreds of miles from any outdoor climbing. Full disclosure, the gym staff are all good buddies of my friend, so we'd already been introduced. Best, Helen Random question...how many of you have given, or received, a stance or body belay? If you haven't done either, would you be willing to have such a belay? I have not, yet....but I'd be willing, with the right person. I've watched them, though, with uber competent and experienced climbers. Closest I've come to a hip belay myself, was throwing a rope downslope on steep icy stuff to help "haul" someone climbing back up, after they were kind enough to hike down after something that rolled downhill. Bozeman ice fest, lotsa nice people! |
Old lady H wrote: this just put a massive smile on my face (-: thanks for the confidence boost after seeing all of these discussions spin out. been teaching this since i started administering tests even if its not part of the parameters--i just want anyone i work with to have 'portable skills' & be safe! |
Mark Pilate wrote: Clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about and most likely you don’t know how the microwave operates either. |
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"So, I do. I watch him. Watch him fall gracefully, with his arms flailing over his head and his back arched and spine perfectly exposed to the boulder at my feet. "
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Fehim Hasecic wrote: Lol. Clearly. And to be real sticklers for semantics and word meanings, you should not say “on belay” until the leader falls and you actually catch them and they are hanging on the rope. Then they are officially being belayed. Otherwise, what you REALLY mean is that you are READY to belay them if they fall….but they may or may not have clipped the first piece yet, so even if YOU’RE ready, THEY may not be ready. But they may not KNOW they’re not ready, so as soon as they clip something to potentially hang from, you should say something. But if you say “on belay” then, they may get confused and think they’re weighting the rope and have blown the onsight or red point. But since they’re not weighting the rope, they are not technically on a belay. So you should simply say “SAFER” as they clip, to avoid confusion This also relieves you of the liability of potentially implying to them that they are in fact totally SAFE, which is not true. As they move upward, you should be sure to mention that they are getting “less safe” as they go. This is all to avoid confusion, as the old climbing commands for decades left people confused and wondering what state of safety they were in.
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While for the most part this is all amusing pedantry, I feel there is one real as yet unaddressed issue with teaching that on belay comes after the first clip. Everyone yet who has supported this practice has justified it with something along the lines of "you shouldn't say 'on belay' until the rope anchor system is complete" with further justification that this will increase the situational awareness of new climbers. The problem is that this reasoning has an obvious but very wrong corollary of "you should say 'off belay' when the rope anchor system is incomplete." When cleaning an anchor and lowering there is indeed a stretch where the climber is unbelayable, but experienced climbers understand that there is a real danger in trying to communicate "off belay." Communication breakdown is a less obvious danger than not being clipped into the first bolt, so its not uncommon for inexperienced climbers to make this mistake. It feels like a very bad idea to promote a terminology that supports a common and dangerous beginner mistake for the sake of helping make beginners aware of a situation that even beginners tend to already be fully aware of. |
