Question about Cassin X-Dream picks

Hi Folks, 

I've been climbing on X-Dreams for a few seasons.  Love these tools.  I have a question about the different available picks. 

For dry tooling, i use the dry picks.  For ice climbing, I used the mixte picks.  What's the deal with the ice picks?

From looking at the pictures, they look identical to the mixte picks, only that the serrated bit right up near the shaft is not so long, and the teeth on the top of the head (for Stein pulls) are not so long.  Is there any difference with the geometry, thickness, angle, and so on of the actual blade and tip of these picks???  One source said that the ice pick brings the tip 6 mm closer to the handle...Is that true?

Thanks.

Bruno Schull wrote:

 the ice pick brings the tip 6 mm closer to the handle...Is that true?

Yes sightly different shape, bit thinner, bit lighter. 

For ice you should try Krukonogi 00 pick. It's another level. 

I keep my X dreams on the mixed setting and use either the mixed or ice picks depending on what is available. often mix and match. i can't really tell the difference? 

Thanks for the replies--I also got some answers by piecing together information from a couple of websites. 

This picks are:

Dry--most aggressive, steep angle, hooked point, 4 mm uniform thickness. 

Race--A little less aggressive, somewhat less steep, hooked point, 4 mm uniform thickness

Mixte--A more balanced shape, not as steeply angled/hooked, 3 mm at tip widening to 4 mm at 10 cm back from the point

Ice--Very similar to the Mixte, 3 mm at tip widening to 4 mm at 8 cm back from the point

It's a little weird that the Mixte pick is actually thinner over more of it's length than the Ice pick, but it probably doesn't make much difference. Just from looking at the picks, the Ice pick has a greater curve along the top of the pick, and I imagine that would make it easier to clean, but it sounds like folks who have climbed with both find them nearly identical.  The ice pick also sits a little lower in then tool--the reach is very slightly less than the Mixte pick, although the angle along the bottom of the pick looks the same.  

There's a nice comparison with lots of pictures at The Alpine Start (https://www.thealpinestart.com/2015/04/08/long-term-review-cassin-x-dream)  

Anyway, I've always used the Dry picks for dry tooling, and the Mixte picks for everything else...I was just wondering if the Ice picks were significant;y better.

The older ice pick (before they offered pick weights) tapered farther towards the tip to get some weight behind the swing, that's not the case with the latest model, it's thinner. My micrometer battery is dead otherwise I'd give you a measurement, but Cassin has told me this via email and I've measured in the past to verify. And yes, the blade runs essentially parallel to the Mixte at the same angle but sits closer to the handle. 

I had a positive impression of the ice picks but I've not swung them into the same ice back to back with brand new mixte picks (ie I bought them when the Mixte needed replacing) so maybe placebo. 

The pick weights specifically mount differently (only 2 pieces fit on the ice vs 3 on the Mixte) so Cassin clearly thinks there's a difference in how they swing for whatever that's worth. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to put more weight on for mixed climbing. 

My  pick weights stay the same. maybe only have 2???   right now i am running a mixed and an ice on each tool. i can't tell the difference? 

It's that middle piece that is meant for the Mixte. 

I definatly have that and have never had a problem getting it back together with ice picks. i used to buy the ones with hammers on them. whatever is in stock or on sale. 

I realized I wasn't clear, sorry. I have all 3 pieces on the ice picks too, but Cassin specifically suggest using 2. 

https://www.camp-usa.com/outdoor/product/ice-axes/ice-axe-accessories/x-dream-head-weights/

The weights can be used with all of the picks with two parts that add the right amount of weight to the Ice pick and an additional insert that increases the weight optimally for the Mixte pick.

While it sounds like some folks have found the picks similar, I noticed a huge difference when climbing with the Mixte (which I love) vs the Ice (which didn't work for me at all). It's pretty astounding, because they look so similar. It's subtle, but there are differences. I really noticed it when climbing a long route with one pick on each tool, to compare the difference. The Mixte always went in like butter for me, phenomenal pick, but the Ice pick kept bouncing out. As if I were swinging a hammer onto the ice. Was crazy, with the Ice pick I felt like I didn't know how to climb (maybe true, but the Mixte was going in effortlessly). It's not really the fault of the pick, or any fault of anything, but just slightly different geometry between the two, which, for me, dramatically interacted with my swing. Some people will have the exact opposite experience, no doubt. So the issue is which pick best matches your swing (I think I do more of an elbow and wrist flick rather than a big powerful shoulder swing). 

I chatted with my friend at Camp/Cassin about the differences afterward. My experience was familiar to him, and made sense -- he'd heard it before from people. Indeed the differences are subtle -- not everyone will notice it, really depends on your swing. But compare the two very closely, particularly being sure to align them as they would be mounted on the tools, and you'll see that the Ice pick has a slightly more aggressive/steep downward angle (Mixte being slightly more relaxed, a couple degrees closer to perpendicular to the shaft). I've tried to portray it in the photos below. Thus, my theory, which my friend thought was "spot on," is that the more downward tilt on the Ice pick means -- again, given my swing, since I kinda flick the tool at the end -- that with my swing the nose of the pick first hits the ice, rather than the tip. Like the blunt butter knife part. What you want, of course, is for the tip to hit first. I coulda filed back the angle on the Ice pick to compensate, but that could affect durability. I just stuck with the Mixte instead, as it's a great pick for me. If it's working for you, maybe ya wanna stick with it. Sounds like some folks aren't noticing a difference between the two, but I certainly did. Just individual nuances in how our unique swings intersect with the angles of the pick/tools. Apologies if this is hard to follow. It's a little difficult to explain. 

My buddy at Camp/Cassin said that most people seem to find the Mixte better for ice climbing -- paradoxical as that seems, given the naming convention. That's certainly what I've found as well.

That's super helpful Kelly!  I think I'll stick with the Mixte picks, which work great for me :)

All the best, Bruno

I think the reason i can't tell the difference is because i never have made an effort to remember which pick is on which tool.... 

Have you tried the latest model picks Kelly? 

I find the Cassin picks to be too soft and have been using these for a couple of seasons now. My Howey picks have a hammer on the end but it looks like those are no longer available.

https://howeytool.com/product/howt-cxd-mix/

I did an overlay of the 2 picks. From what I could measure, the blade heights at the 4th tooth are the same. The Ice is 1° steeper than the Mixte and sits lower.

New Ice = 102g, Mixte = 114g
The old Ice blade w/hammer was heavy [???g] but most notably was heavy in the back. Right where you don't want it. This made it want to rollover sideways. I never liked it.

For me the best combination is the Mixte pick with 2 weights. The ice around here is hard most of the time.

jdejace, I think the Ice picks I tried were the old ones (had the fixed hammer). My current Mixte are the new ones (pretty sure) -- they have that orange insert/slot, for adding a hammer. Since abandoning the Ice picks I have not returned to them, perhaps they're better now? My side-by-side field trials, noted above, were in 2019. Though the awesome overlay by rocknice2 (I'm like a caveman in comparison, nicely done!) seems to show the same angles. Looking at it, I'm still amazed that it was so dramatic for me. Doesn't appear to be much difference, but I sure noticed it.

Good notes, IMO, about the value of the weights. For swinging into ice (versus dry tooling or hooking), the weights are a big help, I think. 

Also agree with Garry R on the soft metal. True, they do wear fast. Perhaps the thin tip exacerbates it as well. Those Howey picks look great -- do you know if they're the geometry of the Ice or the Mixte pick? I bought a pair of Steinle picks a couple seasons back -- much harder metal, the durability and performance has been great. The guy there, Michael Steinle, was super helpful and confirmed that the angle exactly matches the Mixte pick. They are not compatible with the hammer accessory, so I swap back to the Mixte if I think I'll need the hammer. I added a hardware store bolt, nut, and washers to the Steinle to approximate the pick weights. Can't remember, but I think I came up a bit short, though they still climb well.  

Kelly,

I use the howey picks and find them to be almost exactly the same swing as the Mixte picks from camp/cassin, but with much, much better metal. I recall when I first got them laying them over the picks, and they seemed basically the same - it’s been a few years though.

I used to tune the mixte picks up all the time - sometimes after every climb, and I was burning through two a season at least when I was doing a lot of climbing. The howey picks need about as much tuning as a nomic pick - maybe after a longer day but often they look fine. Overall, I can’t recommend them enough over the stock picks. 

Awesome, Colin -- thank you! I should check them out for sure. They sound great. 

I just went night soling.  I marked the tool with the mixed pick so that i could tell what was happening, I got roughly twice as many one swing sticks with the mixed as with the ice. this may be because I have both my handles on the mixed setting? 

Interesting test result. I don't know if it's the handles, seems you're not the only one who's had good luck with the Mixte.

Did you switch hands somewhere along the way? I'm pretty sure I'd get more one swing sticks with my dominant hand regardless.