What do you mean when you say “on belay”?

Marcus McCoy wrote:

With all due respect Phylp, Whatever standards you use to classify "first protection" or "anchor point" is irrelevant, its not a belay until there is something, anything, that one can use to belay their partner with the rope.

In the end it is just the specific usage of a term, I think the funny part is everyone here probably has very similar habits and practices.

Seconding. Being on belay requires an anchor in the system. The anchor can be a bolt, piton, removable pro, tree, etc. or even your own body properly braced in some circumstances (belaying from above or maybe a traverse on easy terrain), but there needs to be some kind of anchor in a configuration that is capable of arresting the belayed climber's fall.

Again, this conversation started because someone thought it was absurd that gyms would teach lead belayers not to say "on belay" until the first piece of pro is clipped. This is a specific application for that gym setting, but the general principle is sound - everyone needs to understand what is being used for the anchor and verify that the anchor is indeed attached in the system in order to consider the belay functional.

L Kap wrote:

Seconding. Being on belay requires an anchor in the system. The anchor can be a bolt, piton, removable pro, tree, etc. or even your own body properly braced in some circumstances (belaying from above or maybe a traverse on easy terrain), but there needs to be some kind of anchor in a configuration that is capable of arresting the belayed climber's fall.

Again, this conversation started because someone thought it was absurd that gyms would teach lead belayers not to say "on belay" until the first piece of pro is clipped. This is a specific application for that gym setting, but the general principle is sound - everyone needs to understand what is being used for the anchor and verify that the anchor is indeed attached in the system in order to consider the belay functional.

BuT tHeY cAn OpErAtE iT wItHoUt UnDeRsTaNdInG hOw It WoRkS!!!

FrankPS wrote:

"On belay?" is a question asked by the climber.

"Belay's on" is a statement from the belayer.

As a dirty foreigner this thread really confused me until I reread it saw this and remembered you lot use it differently (*).

Now whilst it still seems a silly argument at least it doesn't seem insane.

* If anyone cares in the UK, 'On belay' is only said by the belayer, usually as 'On belay climb when ready.' Not used by the climber as a question. Well that's in trad climbing no idea about sport climbers I avoid them because of the STDs and stuff.

It means, 

"If I let go of this rope, you be laying on the ground."

Neil B wrote:

As a dirty foreigner this thread really confused me until I reread it saw this and remembered you lot use it differently (*).

Now whilst it still seems a silly argument at least it doesn't seem insane.

* If anyone cares in the UK, 'On belay' is only said by the belayer, usually as 'On belay climb when ready.' Not used by the climber as a question. Well that's in trad climbing no idea about sport climbers I avoid them because of the STDs and stuff.

There's that usage in the states as well. 

It's a question if initiated by the climber, but the belayer can shorten the entire exchange by saying what you just wrote.

Marc801 C wrote:

There's that usage in the states as well. 

It's a question if initiated by the climber, but the belayer can shorten the entire exchange by saying what you just wrote.

Or you could just use the time honored protocol of "dude?" "DUDE!"  works about as well.

Seriously if you must be pedantic in the definition then you can't belay anyone until the rope etc is in state where I can belay it.  So by that definition I can't be on belay.  But come on.  Practically the belayer is on belay when:

1. Their  belay device, biner, rope harness are ready for business.

2. They have enough slack out so they won't have to adjust it until the climber reaches the first gear.

3.  they are adjusting the slack because they guessed wrong.

4. they are spotting - if merited

6. They are offering beta - if wanted

7. They are moving the rope out the way of the climber's feet and legs.

All this before the leader's rope is clipped through the first gear.  In the real world that's the way it works.  In the gym play by their rules.

WTF !! How many of these threads are there?  It’s like a fucking Hydra.  Lock one, two more spring up,  then unlock so there’s 3 plus the original, for 4.  

I suggest just using the “am I on belay” thread as the one for anyone who still cares.  At least that where I replied to some of you…

Eric Engberg wrote:

Or you could just use the time honored protocol of "dude?" "DUDE!"  works about as well.

A big distinction missing in these multiple threads are whether the exchange between two new or random partners vs two long time partners. Back in '77* one of my regular partners let me know I was on belay by saying "Punch it, Chewy!"*. With another nearly career long partner, if possible we often did the communication for both on and off belay with hand signals in silence.

*: For you youngsters, Star Wars was released in '77

Seriously if you must be pedantic in the definition then you can't belay anyone until the rope etc is in state where I can belay it.  So by that definition I can't be on belay.  But come on.  Practically the belayer is on belay when:

1. Their  belay device, biner, rope harness are ready for business.

2. They have enough slack out so they won't have to adjust it until the climber reaches the first gear.

3.  they are adjusting the slack because they guessed wrong.

4. they are spotting - if merited

6. They are offering beta - if wanted

7. They are moving the rope out the way of the climber's feet and legs.

All this before the leader's rope is clipped through the first gear.  In the real world that's the way it works.  In the gym play by their rules.

Totally agree. This rightfully should be the end of all these threads.

Eric Engberg wrote:

Or you could just use the time honored protocol of "dude?" "DUDE!"  works about as well.

Seriously if you must be pedantic in the definition then you can't belay anyone until the rope etc is in state where I can belay it.  So by that definition I can't be on belay.  But come on.  Practically the belayer is on belay when:

Interesting. This might be the crux of the argument. The way I have always heard it defined is that the leader is on belay...i.e. the leader is being effectively protected by the belay system. The belayer is performing the action of belaying, they are not being belayed. So I tell my leader "you're on belay", not "I (the belayer) am on belay". 

Ya'll must be a lot of fun at a party.

TBlom wrote:

Ya'll must be a lot of fun at a party.

I see you've come belay-tedly to the party.