Ice climbing is (very) costy

A good friend of mine wanted to try ice climbing, he went to rent axes, crampons, boots and harness since he has nothing at all.
After getting out of the rental shop he told me it was a lot of money just to rent for one day. He then ask me if he wouldn't be better off buying the gear. He doesn't plan to get into it but rather top rop 2/3 times per winter so it made sense to him.
When I told him the price of each item he quickly backed off...

This got me thinking, ice climbing is pretty damn expensive! I m sure I have like $10 000 worth of ice climbing equipement in my closet, that is kind of crazy...
All in all if you have nothing and want to buy everything you need and not buy the cheapest or a lot of second hand stuff this is an investement you only make over several years.
This is a big barrier to the practise.

Do you think the prices of soft and hard goods are justified?

It doesn't cost $10,000 to get started ice climbing, so I don't understand why you used that figure. How much gear you have doesn't equate to how much you need to get started.

FrankPS wrote:

It doesn't cost $10,000 to get started ice climbing, so I don't understand why you used that figure.

I know. I was using it to say that all the equipement involved cost a lot. For sure no one is gonna spend 10 k right away but over time that is what you may end up spending over the years. 

It's pretty easy to buy lightly used ice gear at a deep discount where I live. Plenty of people wealthy people in Boston buy high end gear and only stick with it for a season or two. 

I would argue that the highest true expenses are really time and driving for most participants. Driving out to ice climbing areas is rough on cars. 

Yeah, it's not cheap. And JB is right, the largest ongoing cost is a winter-capable vehicle and gas costs for driving. Even used, buying boots (400), tools (200/ea), crampons (100), dry rope(s) (200), and some screws (???) and outerwear can easily get you to $1500.

I'd also keep my eyes peeled for the prahji folks selling their gear too. I've seen plenty of for sale stuff on the cheap. Seems plenty of prahjis also buy stuff that gets used only a couple seasons before they decide it ain't for them.

There is no reason a nooB ice climber should spend 200 per tool. Especially if you are just top roping 2-3 time a year..

Ice climbing has a steep upfront cost, but it is one of the cheapest sports I do because of the lack of innovation in gear. For the past 7 years, I have been climbing on X-Dreams, Bladerunners, and Petzl Laser lights and there is no reason to upgrade. I've bought a few new picks and one new set of front points, but that's it. Ropes wear but nowhere near as fast as rock climbing.

Compared to skiing or mountain biking, ice climbing is relatively inexpensive.

x15x15 wrote:

I'd also keep my eyes peeled for the prahji folks selling their gear too. I've seen plenty of for sale stuff on the cheap. Seems plenty of prahjis also buy stuff that gets used only a couple seasons before they decide it ain't for them.

There is no reason a nooB ice climber should spend 200 per tool. Especially if you are just top roping 2-3 time a year..

find me some used, modern tools for less than 200/tool

I don't really understand the question? It's expensive, it's (highly) discretionary. It's kind of like asking if a restaurant meal or a good bottle of single malt are "justified." If you've got the money and it makes you happy, sure. If not, there are cheaper hobbies. I'd like a 40ft sailboat but my second mountain bike is on the way and we've all got limits. 

x15x15 wrote:

I'd also keep my eyes peeled for the prahji folks selling their gear too. I've seen plenty of for sale stuff on the cheap. Seems plenty of prahjis also buy stuff that gets used only a couple seasons before they decide it ain't for them.

I didn't think my english was that bad but I have no idea of the meaning of "prahji" (and I look it up on google)

Also, to anwer to @jdejace: 

I get what you are saying but I don't think you can compare ice climbing and owning a boat.
I just think that this great sport would see many more people trying it if it wasn't for the cost of it.
The ice climbing community as a whole could use some diversity and new faces. 

Ben Podborski wrote:

find me some used, modern tools for less than 200/tool

Why would anyone who is a NooB need a modern 200 dollar tool to TOP ROPE???!!! 3 TIMES A YEAR AT MOST?

"All in all if you have nothing and want to buy everything"

If you rock climb (harness, helmet, belay device, slings, rope), peak-bag glaciated mountains (warm boots, crampons), hike in winter snow (warm clothes, gloves, thermos), etc. then you can start playing the steeper water-ice game without needing 1000s of dollars.

Is this cost much different than that of having enough equipment to camp at Iceberg Lake and climb the East Buttress of Mt Whitney?

Ben Podborski wrote:

find me some used, modern tools for less than 200/tool

Here you go. This was half a second of work. 130 per tool is not bad, but you can do better. Are people just too gullible these days? Or is it laziness...

I am finishing my master's in product design, and throughout this process I have learned a lot about what it costs to make objects. And my overall opinion after this is that gear is way cheaper than it should be, or at least that the cost is very much justified. 

Do I also think gear is too expensive? Yes, especially whatever piece of gear I am buying right now.

Here is a two part question: I have noticed that ice climbers tends to be older than rock climbers overall, agree? To what extent does the price of gear influence that effect?

What price oh brave explorer, will you pay to enter the Dance of Vertical Ice?

x15x15 wrote:

Here you go. This was half a second of work. 130 per tool is not bad, but you can do better. Are people just too gullible these days? Or is it laziness...

clearly i didn't conduct a comprehensive market analysis; my point is that it's another several hundred dollars that adds into your entry expenses to ice climbing

J B wrote:

It's pretty easy to buy lightly used ice gear at a deep discount where I live. Plenty of people wealthy people in Boston buy high end gear and only stick with it for a season or two. 

I would argue that the highest true expenses are really time and driving for most participants. Driving out to ice climbing areas is rough on cars. 

J B, I'm curious where you go for used gear around Boston. Hunting for deals is fun and I have some spare time right now!

Back to the actual thread topic, it seems to me that ice climbing has a higher entry cost because of the conditions (winter clothing needed if you don't have it) and the extra technical gear (boots/tools/crampons/eventually screws) compared to, for example, sport climbing (shoes/draws/rope/harness is it, and you need a lot of that stuff in addition to ice-specific gear). I don't know if the cost is justified but I don't think it's going to change from the manufacturer's side... it's working for them just fine right now. And from the side of the used gear market, as people mentioned already, stuff holds value quite well and doesn't become obsolete very quickly. If you're patient/lucky, though, there are very good deals to be had (on the For Sale forum or elsewhere). I got my ice gear last spring towards the end of ice season for quite cheap, relatively speaking. Ice is not as costly as some winter sports though... I could probably buy myself at least a set of tools and maybe more every season with what some of my friends spend on lift tickets for downhill skiing. 

All that being said, it is still a significant up front cost. I agree that ice climbing (and outdoor sports in general) would benefit from more diversity and more people getting the chance to try things they can't currently do for cost/access/other reasons. At a large scale I have no idea how to address that but at a smaller scale, my only idea is to check out local university outing clubs/outdoor education programs, if you want to/can stand to spend time around students. Had that idea on my mind because that's how I do most of my outdoor stuff at the moment (or with people I met in that context). Groups like that tend to have a lot of gear already available so if you can get affiliated by being a participant/instructor/mentor/donor/whatever, you might be able to get access to a bunch of gear without having to buy it all. Maybe more publicly open but otherwise similar groups are the answer to this problem more generally, but that seems like a difficult thing to get going from the start without the funding/structure of a university around to help at the beginning.

Ben Podborski wrote:

find me some used, modern tools for less than 200/tool

Every used X Dream sold on MP.

Fabien M wrote:

I didn't think my english was that bad but I have no idea of the meaning of "prahji" (and I look it up on google)

I'm assuming it's the new American vernacular for someone who spends a shit ton on quality clothing and gear and barely uses it (prahna-gucci, see also 'gucci' and patagucci').

I see ice climbing as a part of the sport you gradually ease into. Yes, if you would buy everything at once and new it would be screamingly expensive. 

If you follow a somewhat normal (in my part of the world at least) progression you go from hiking and camping to scrambling to gym climbing to mountaineering to ice climbing and technical mountaineering (order could be different but ice climbing is often last). A lot of these hobbies have interchangeable gear (ie the layering systems, part of the climbing equipment and most of the backpacks). This way you kind of spread the costs. I have no idea how much money I have spent on gear in the last five years, I'm sure it runs into the thousands of Euros easily. My income isn't enormous but it was surely affordable if you don't want the latest and greatest and spread out purchases according to needs. 

Ice climbing is pure technology ie you cannot do it at all without that technology.

Whereas rock climbing is a native human ability and requires no technology whatsoever.

Complaining about how much stuff costs is canonical boomer behavior.

I got a "great deal" on my used ice screws... but with the time I had to spend sharpening them I'm not sure I really made out in the end.  It can be tricky with used equipment unless your time has zero value.  But the biggest issue is the boots/clothing. Ice climbing/mountaineering is the old saw "there's no bad weather, just inappropriate clothing" made real. There's just no way around being safe and happy requiring stuff that is not cheap and won't last forever.

It would be nice if there was no cost-based barrier to entry for people trying and enjoying cool shit.  But there is, so no one gets to do everything they might dream of. Such is life.