Detuning new ice tool picks

I just did a long overdue replacement of the picks on my ice tools. They are noticeably, sometimes annoyingly, harder to remove from placements. I’ve heard of people “detuning” new picks for this reason by filing the last tooth. Anyone have tips on how to do this or if it’s even a thing? 

It is a thing. What brand picks do you have? Guessing Petzl.

What you want to do is flatten out the first tooth or beak of the tool. The more aggressive the hook is on the beak the harder it is to remove from the ice but is better for mixed.

Careful how much you flatten it out. While it's fine for deep sticks you may find they release too easily on shallow sticks.

I don't know what picks you are using, but chances are you would be better served by changing your technique or sharpening (edit: reprofile) the top bevel to a steeper angle, rather than detuning the beak. Make sure that the top bevel goes all the head / pick weight.  

Detuning the beak will likely ruin the pick for thin ice and mixed climbing.  I would personally never do this.  Sharpening (edit: reprofiling) the top bevel is almost certainly going to be better option for making that pick easier to clean than detuning the beak.  

If you are using picks with aggressive teeth just behind the point (Petzl Ice for instance) I have had good results with filing them down a bit. They start as pyramids with a point, and I file them on the sides to create a straight "ridge line" on each.

Second vote to sharpen the top edge.

Rocknice has a lot of experience from what I understand. Perhaps that experience keeps them from ruining picks. I would be very careful about ruining picks by changing the angle too much. I would do that last, after trying other mods.

To reiterate, all modern picks have a bevel on the top edge and making it razor sharp serves no additional purpose, at least none that I've found. Detuning the secondary teeth does absolutely nothing.

Lifting the handle so the top bevel cuts the ice and enlarges the placement, makes room for the secondary teeth [pyramid shaped].
But this doesn't seem to make any room for the first tooth [the beak], which presses down and packs ice under it. That's why an aggressive hook on the beak impedes removal.

I've tried sharpening the top bevel razor sharp and rounding off the secondary teeth. Removing the hook from the first tooth was what worked best with a caveat.
This should be the last resort, since it will impact other aspects, such as shallow ice placements and dry tooling tiny edges.

It could be the way you're removing the tool. First pull up to enlarge the placement. If you find it hard to remove the placement, try to rotate the tool out by pushing the handle up and into the ice and the head out. Like a reverse of the swing.
If your too high to do that, grab the head of the tool and pull up and out.

rocknice2 wrote:

To reiterate, all modern picks have a bevel on the top edge and making it razor sharp serves no additional purpose, at least none that I've found. 

The Grivel Ice blade is a classic example of an alpine / mixed pick that isn’t beveled all the way to the head.  It is easy to drive the pick past the transition to the unbeveled portion of the pick.  The pick doesn’t have much of a reverse curve, so the ease of cleaning is highly dependent on the bevel angle.  These picks are much easier to clean, when you steepen the bevel angle and continue the bevel all the way to the head.

The Grivel Ice blade also has poorly designed teeth that make it harder to clean.  You can modify the teeth, so they don’t catch as easily, when you are pulling the pick out.

In contrast, the Petzl Pur’Ice pick comes the factory with a steeper bevel angle and reverse curve that goes all the way to the head.  The teeth are designed to bite, when the pick is pulled down, not when pulling out. The Pur’Ice is very well designed for ease of cleaning, without any modification.  I have never felt the need to modify the top bevel of the Pur’Ice.

ClimbingOn wrote:

It is a thing. What brand picks do you have? Guessing Petzl.

CAMP

Greg R wrote:

CAMP

Then you definitely should follow Rocknice's advice. 

As for sharpening the top edge, not only do they come already sharp, but a simple consideration of the leverage exerted and the pressures it creates as you work the pick loose should make it clear that the force will drive the "beak" at the tip in deeper rather than enlarging the placement at the top, regardless of how sharp that top edge is.

Gunkiemike wrote:

As for sharpening the top edge, not only do they come already sharp, but a simple consideration of the leverage exerted and the pressures it creates as you work the pick loose should make it clear that the force will drive the "beak" at the tip in deeper rather than enlarging the placement at the top, regardless of how sharp that top edge is.

Is this really an issue that requires detuning the beak, rather than technique?  

I get how this could be an issue, but I think the problem can potentially solved without detuning pics.  I don’t own CAMP tools, but I haven’t had issues with cleaning unmodified CAMP picks, when I have used them.  I‘ll try and describe how I clean picks with a hooked beak.  

Step 1: Move the tool handle upwards and outwards allow the top bevel to cut into the ice above.  This puts downward force on the beak, but creates space and releases the teeth.  

If you have a good bevel, the push cut will be enough to release the teeth, without any slicing action.  The hooked beak can prevent slicing action.  

Step 2: Push the tool handle upwards and inwards to take the downward force off the beak.  

Step 3: Pull the pick out of the hole, being careful not to reengage the beak or teeth, while pulling outwards.  

I use cassin x dreams. no modification is nessicary.they rock right out of the box. most of us swing too hard. myself included... 

I wouldn’t bother detuning Petzl picks personally. I think they’re fine as is. FWIW I climb with the Mixed pick almost exclusively.

Ted Raven wrote:

I wouldn’t bother detuning Petzl picks personally. I think they’re fine as is. FWIW I climb with the Mixed pick almost exclusively.

It has been a while since I've climbed on Petzl picks, but I remember the Ice picks being significantly stickier than the Dry picks.

rocknice2 wrote:

To reiterate, all modern picks have a bevel on the top edge and making it razor sharp serves no additional purpose, at least none that I've found. Detuning the secondary teeth does absolutely nothing.

Lifting the handle so the top bevel cuts the ice and enlarges the placement, makes room for the secondary teeth [pyramid shaped].
But this doesn't seem to make any room for the first tooth [the beak], which presses down and packs ice under it. That's why an aggressive hook on the beak impedes removal.

I've tried sharpening the top bevel razor sharp and rounding off the secondary teeth. Removing the hook from the first tooth was what worked best with a caveat.
This should be the last resort, since it will impact other aspects, such as shallow ice placements and dry tooling tiny edges.

It could be the way you're removing the tool. First pull up to enlarge the placement. If you find it hard to remove the placement, try to rotate the tool out by pushing the handle up and into the ice and the head out. Like a reverse of the swing.
If your too high to do that, grab the head of the tool and pull up and out.

I basically agree with all of this, especially changing pick angle as a last resort. I'm curious though, what picks do you use? Do they have a rounded upper corner, like BD, or a squared off upper corner like Petzl? I suspect that has a role in cleaning as well. I have only climbed on picks with a distinct corner, and I wonder if that aids in cleaning by cutting out some room when tilting the tool up. I will try comparing the two designs soon as I have some new Kuznia picks that are rounded.

J C wrote:

I basically agree with all of this, especially changing pick angle as a last resort. I'm curious though, what picks do you use? Do they have a rounded upper corner, like BD, or a squared off upper corner like Petzl? I suspect that has a role in cleaning as well. I have only climbed on picks with a distinct corner, and I wonder if that aids in cleaning by cutting out some room when tilting the tool up. I will try comparing the two designs soon as I have some new Kuznia picks that are rounded.

I now ice climb on X-Dreams with mixed picks and don't do the mod. I experimented in the past on BD picks. I thinned them in height and width, changed tip angles and radius, tried different beak angles. I wanted to make My Fuels stick like the X-Dreams. In the end I just bought XDs. 

What's funny is that I posted some of my findings and got flake for thinning my picks. It ends up that both Petzl and BD took my suggestions and now offer thinner picks.

that sketch of how you changed the tip angle is insane.  Do you really want to make the tool less effective for  hooking and make it less likly to stick in a dellicate placement...  X dream picks are perfect out of the box. as they wear you lose the bird beak  shape so I restore that with a round  chainsaw file.   Grivel  machine picks came flat like your picture. First move I ever made with them they popped and I landed right on my butt. I whipped out my file and increased the angle, did my Majic with the chainsaw file and did that with every replacement pick for those tools. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

X dream picks are perfect out of the box. as they wear you lose the bird beak  shape so I restore that with a round  chainsaw file.   

I have done the same but isn’t it a bit problematic that once you recreate the bird beak with a round file you’ve changed the bottom profile. With further sharpening of the point it regresses into the curve you’ve created, and eventually you have to remove a lot of the pick to regain the original hooking angle. 

Duh.. you  sharpen , you take off  material.  Pick gets shorter and thinner  to the point  that the picks are retired and replaced.  Is what it is.  The alternative is to not  sharpen.  

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Duh.. you  sharpen , you take off  material.  Pick gets shorter and thinner  to the point  that the picks are retired and replaced.  Is what it is.  The alternative is to not  sharpen.  

But to just sharpen the pick involves removing 1/32”  of material. If you create a beak with say 1/4” round file, when you get into that curved area you will need to take off a 1/4” of material all at once to have something that resembles the original plane of the hooking surface. Unless I misunderstood how you are creating a new beak. 

ice climbing is expensive. i just file the things until they are sharp, go out and bash the crap out of them. repeat. then i take em off , put em on the shelf and put new ones on.   I try to keep it looking like the original shape with varying degrees of success. 

Hey folks!

Joining the "detuning" discussion a bit. I've recently switched on BD Fuels for drytooling/mixed (coming from Grivel Tech Machine Carbon), for various reasons, and I quickly understood and liked the Fuels' stiffness, feel and precision on hard, overhanging drytooling. However, that being said, after testing them on easy ice (WI4) with the stock "Ice+" picks (the old ones, not the "Natural Ice+") I've also come to realize the shortcomings of the design of the picks and found the rumors about the "Fuels' substandard performance on ice" to be partly true. 

I know that the Fuels are far from a universal tool, and are by design more oriented towards mixed, but I'm an advocate of owning a single tool, and accepting the associated shortcomings. Now, coming from the easy, single swing secure placements of the Grivels and their Ice picks, I find fiddling around with the "Ice+" picks quite frustrating (more ice displacement, more swings required, harder to clean). Indeed, this might be a technique adaptation thing on my part, but since I'll be using the tools mostly for mixed/dry, and also for occasional pure ice, I figured I'd try and mod the BD picks to a shape that resembles that of the chiseled Ice Vario from Grivel (which, IMHO, offers butter smooth performance).

Now, onto the mod/detuning itself: do you think I went overboard with removing the material? I also plan to get some Kuznias for pure ice in the nearby future.

Thanks, 

Andrei