Blackdiamond ultra light ice screws

Has any one had any issues with ice sticking in side the new green BD ultra light ice screws? I just bought a few 13cm ice BD UL screws and was out playing with them and was having the tips plug with ice making the very difficult to place. The temperatures was 20-25*f (-6 to 4 *C) and the ice ranged from plasticky and wet to dry and perfect, not brittle. The ice screws plugged in all conditions enough so that leading was a pain. My old steel express screws did not have any issues. 

What you experienced is exactly why some folks have no use for those screws. 

I got rid of all of mine for that reason. If you insist on ultra light screws I think the Blue Ice are the best but nothing goes in like all steel screws. Of the steel screws I think the Cassin screws are some of the best. 

I think that it's in the nature of the material; aluminum is more thermally conductive than steel. I bought one Laser Speed Light a few years ago, and after experiencing this problem decided in favor of the Ultralights. The BD screws are about 1mm larger in diameter than the Petzls, and that difference means that there is more volume to the core relative to its surface area. So far, they've been easier to clean. So far.

Paul Morrison wrote:

I think that it's in the nature of the material; aluminum is more thermally conductive than steel. I bought one Laser Speed Light a few years ago, and after experiencing this problem decided in favor of the Ultralights. The BD screws are about 1mm larger in diameter than the Petzls, and that difference means that there is more volume to the core relative to its surface area. So far, they've been easier to clean. So far.

It’s been widely reported that aluminum screws have this tendency. Blue ice screws are even larger diameter than BD and are said to clean easier. Maybe it’s the diameter,  but the manufacturer says it’s the 3 tooth design that gives it the superior cleaning properties. Has anyone noticed if lubricant (silicone spray) helps? 

One thing that may be worth trying with the aluminum screws…

Have them get cold outside before use.  Maybe hang them on outside of pack, instead of stuffed inside with everything warm that came from inside your home.    They do bind up in wet ice, but not always, and good to have a mix.  Steel & aluminum.

Greg R wrote:

It’s been widely reported that aluminum screws have this tendency. Blue ice screws are even larger diameter than BD and are said to clean easier. Maybe it’s the diameter,  but the manufacturer says it’s the 3 tooth design that gives it the superior cleaning properties. Has anyone noticed if lubricant (silicone spray) helps? 

I've lubed the bore of screws before. Helps a little bit, but at the end of the day thermodynamics wins.

Of all the ultralight screws, I'd agree that the Blue Ice are the best (least worst?) about binding up, but it still happens. I've started just carrying a handful of 17cm ultralights plus a 22cm for threads and gone back to steel screws for almost all my 13s and 17s. The hassle of having a screw bind when trying to fire one in on lead isn't worth the weight savings in the shorter lengths. I'll still use longer ultralights for anchors and threads as I have the time and stability to either fight through the binding or clear them and get a new placement.

Yeah I like the old BD ones or the Blue Ice Aero (Ultralight) ones are great.

Bill Belcourt talks about the binding issue towards the start of this video. I'd say he's a reliable resource as the designer of both the BD and Blue Ice screws. He says it's the tooth design.

I think Bill is a great designer and a very smart guy. I don't think he's fully nailed down the problem. There are definitely additional dynamics at play with aluminum ice screws.

The Petzl ice screws come in steel and aluminum, both have an identical tooth profile. The aluminum ones still get stuck but never the steel ones. Same thing with the Blue Ice screws.

The 3 tooth design may very well be a better design. I take him at his word but the fact is the aluminum screws still get stuck in certain conditions. 

What's really interesting is the BI steel are the same weight as the Petzl aluminum. 

rocknice2 wrote:

. The aluminum ones still get stuck but never the steel ones. Same thing with the Blue Ice screws.

The 3 tooth design may very well be a better design. I take him at his word but the fact is the aluminum screws still get stuck in certain conditions. 

What's really interesting is the BI steel are the same weight as the Petzl aluminum. 

Yep, there’s other threads discussing it, but agreed the issue is not fully solved

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120465051/upcoming-new-ice-screws

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120300213/petzl-laser-speed-light-problem

Cor wrote:

One thing that may be worth trying with the aluminum screws…

Have them get cold outside before use.  Maybe hang them on outside of pack, instead of stuffed inside with everything warm that came from inside your home.

I feel like the aluminum or steel will come into thermal equilibrium with the outside air after just a few minutes hanging on the harness, so it shouldn’t make a difference

ryan climbs wrote:

So the steel Blue ice Aeros have an aluminum hanger? 

Yup. For me at least, I think they’re currently the best balance between weight savings, cost, and durability.

The thing is almost every major manufacturer of climbing gear has produced an ice screw from aluminium:Cassin,Stubai,Lowe Alpine, Excalibur,HB,Fixe.

So, none of these worked?I can speak for some of these,but not all.

Then there's the Titanium ones,Jeez 

Then again,maybe that's the beauty of ice climbing 

LL Biner wrote:

The thing is almost every major manufacturer of climbing gear has produced an Aluminum..

So, none of these worked?

I have not had an aluminum screw sticking problem for a few seasons now.   It’s all in the wrist and placement.  Once you understand the mechanism of binding, you can mostly avoid it.  I think BI Aluminum minimize the risk significantly 

Spopepro O. wrote:

Bill Belcourt talks about the binding issue towards the start of this video. I'd say he's a reliable resource as the designer of both the BD and Blue Ice screws. He says it's the tooth design.

It looks like people concur that the tooth design is the reason the blue ice screws are superior -- at least when it comes to the binding problem.

If I understand Bill’s explanation in the video, it seems to me he’s close and mostly there, (teeth are the key in many respects) but missing some key details, especially why 3 teeth are better than 4 and why shorter teeth on old steels perform better than say the longer teeth on the BD Aluminums (probably the worst offender in binding).

here’s the deal in a nutshell: Screws work a bit like a coffee grinder. The shavings cut by the teeth are funneled back and down into the tube and as it all is rotating, it grinds down the end of the core plug that is forming inside the “mouth” of the screw.

The core plug never extends past the teeth if you keep good rotation (grinding going).   If the binding issue was mainly the core plug going past the teeth, then sharper teeth, larger bores, and thinner walls would exacerbate the issue by making it more difficult to grind the end of the core plug.  They’d form a bigger badder plug….but it actually seems to help.  Why?

The reason is…The key issue that causes binding is when that core plug in softer wetter ice is “grabbed” and twisted off by the rotating screw.  Now the plug just rotates with the screw, doesn’t get ground down, and stops everything dead in its tracks. 

This is why the shorter steel teeth work cuz they don’t allow the plug to get long enough to be breakable.  The core plug is too stubby to break off. 

The original longer 4 teeth aluminums (the worst) allowed the plug to get longer, (weaker) and the 4 teeth have too much surface area that grab the plug and twist it off in soft ice.  

Blue Ice went bigger bore and 3 teeth and that made the plug stronger (bigger attached base) and less teeth/surface to grab it and twist it off.  

Therefore you want a sweet spot between bore diameter, tooth depth, and minimal tooth surface area but smooth tooth finish.  

In these respects the Blue Ice screws got it right, and BD aluminum screws got it all wrong 

Mark Pilate wrote:

I have not had an aluminum screw sticking problem for a few seasons now.   It’s all in the wrist and placement.  Once you understand the mechanism of binding, you can mostly avoid it.  I think BI Aluminum minimize the risk significantly 

Can you further explain how you place yours then? Thanks 

RWPT wrote:

Can you further explain how you place yours then? Thanks 

Sorry, just saw this.  Short answer: speed and constant rotation.  Odds of binding go up if you stop or go too slow…if you feel it start to bind, back it off slightly, then speed it forward and keep going.  

Safety rule (especially with the shorter screws of today): If you hit the end/max insertion with the hanger up or in wrong place, it’s better to back off 1/2 rotation or so rather than bash it forward to get the hanger down.  The holding power is in the threads and you don’t wanted to shatter or strip the threads by over-driving the screw

Mark Pilate wrote:

If I understand Bill’s explanation in the video, it seems to me he’s close and mostly there, (teeth are the key in many respects) but missing some key details, especially why 3 teeth are better than 4 and why shorter teeth on old steels perform better than say the longer teeth on the BD Aluminums (probably the worst offender in binding).

here’s the deal in a nutshell: Screws work a bit like a coffee grinder. The shavings cut by the teeth are funneled back and down into the tube and as it all is rotating, it grinds down the end of the core plug that is forming inside the “mouth” of the screw.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. In cold ice I think the core is smashed from the internal pressure of the teeth. The teeth are canted radially by about 20°. Giving the outside a sharp edge and a dull inefficient edge on the inside. This internally focused force could pulverize the core. Again, I have no evidence of this but just a gut feeling. the ice comes out looking like dry course grains. Cold ice is generally not the problem. --- Warm ice on the other hand is more plastic and can handle deformity better. I can see your grinding theory at work here. It can also pack up better in a slush plug.

The core plug never extends past the teeth if you keep good rotation (grinding going).   If the binding issue was mainly the core plug going past the teeth, then sharper teeth, larger bores, and thinner walls would exacerbate the issue by making it more difficult to grind the end of the core plug.  They’d form a bigger badder plug….but it actually seems to help.  Why?

The reason is…The key issue that causes binding is when that core plug in softer wetter ice is “grabbed” and twisted off by the rotating screw.  Now the plug just rotates with the screw, doesn’t get ground down, and stops everything dead in its tracks. 

Let’s say this is 100% correct. A steel screw with thinner walls would be more efficient than an aluminum one, creating a longer core. Yet the problem is only present with aluminum screws. Both Petzl and BI have steel and aluminum screws with respectively identical tooth geometries. It’s a direct apple to apple and orange to orange comparison. The other manufacturer BD doesn’t have a direct Fe-Al screw comparison. All other manufactures just are not popular enough or don’t make Al screws to make any comparison.
In warm ice I have seen plugs coming out the back of the tube. I also use the stop counter-rotate and go again method with Al screws. It's hard to tell whether it's a broken plug from the tooth or compacted ice from compression, deeper in the tube. It does have an appearance of tightly compacted granules.

This is why the shorter steel teeth work cuz they don’t allow the plug to get long enough to be breakable.  The core plug is too stubby to break off. 

If it’s too stubby to break off what’s stopping it from going past the teeth? If it’s the grains grinding the core, then a deeper tooth wouldn’t matter.

The original longer 4 teeth aluminums (the worst) allowed the plug to get longer, (weaker) and the 4 teeth have too much surface area that grab the plug and twist it off in soft ice.  

Blue Ice went bigger bore and 3 teeth and that made the plug stronger (bigger attached base) and less teeth/surface to grab it and twist it off.  

Therefore you want a sweet spot between bore diameter, tooth depth, and minimal tooth surface area but smooth tooth finish.  

In these respects the Blue Ice screws got it right, and BD aluminum screws got it all wrong 

I’ll take your word that the BI screws are better. It still doesn’t explain why the BI aluminum still gets stuck and the steel don’t.
I have tried BD and Petzl. It’s hard to see a difference between these two. At least I haven’t found a noticeable difference.

I'm not trying to bust your balls and I'm spit balling just as much as you are. I don't think Bill has it 100% figured out either. He has probably done more testing than all of us combined and there is obviously truth [to a point] in what he says. I'm just saying there is more to the mystery.

The problem I'm always having with all these theories is the fact that it's the aluminum screws that are the problem. As I brought up earlier the Petzl and BI screws came be compared every easily. I ask myself what is different with the Al vs Fe screws.
1- The walls are thicker. The old Grivel screws had thicker walls, not as thick as the Al but thicker none the less. They never had any problem.
2- The material is different. It is has higher friction and has greater thermal conductivity.
I have to admit that I've never noticed a core plug issue with steel screws but that doesn't mean they aren't forming. Just that they're not getting stuck inside the tube.

I have had success with a combination of the back-off technique and ceramic nano-coating the screws. It still happens but not nearly as frequently.

Here's an article about ice core drilling problems

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165232X15001858

Warm ice problems

The temperature in the ice sheet increases with depth, and the lower part of the ice sheet in the approach to the ice/bedrock interface is composed of so-called warm ice — ice with temperatures closest to its pressure melting point. Drilling of the warm ice is extremely difficult with electromechanical drills because as the drill penetrates into warm ice, refrozen ice begins to build up on the cutters and shoes of the drill head, and the performance of the drill rapidly deteriorates to a point.

rocknice2 wrote:

The problem I'm always having with all these theories is the fact that it's the aluminum screws that are the problem. As I brought up earlier the Petzl and BI screws came be compared every easily. I ask myself what is different with the Al vs Fe screws.
1- The walls are thicker. The old Grivel screws had thicker walls, not as thick as the Al but thicker none the less. They never had any problem.
2- The material is different. It is has higher friction and has greater thermal conductivity.

I'll jump in on the spitballing, with my totally non-expert opinion.

I tend to think that the thermal conduction issue is the big one.  I would think that even in colder conditions the act of driving a screw would impart a bunch of energy to the ice, which could be in the form of heat.  Heat melts ice, making water... aluminum quickly sucks heat out of the water, causing insta-freezing?  Not that steel is a slow heat conductor, but it could be enough of a difference to make a difference.  My mind also goes to what I understand to be the physics of skate blades on ice - the friction of the blade running across the ice melts it underfoot, making a momentary water slick over which the blade essentially hydroplanes (but that could just be a myth, for all I know).

For me, the core comes out of a steel screw easier after removing the screw and I have an extra second to tap the core out before it freezes in place. If I don’t immediately bang the core out of an aluminum screw then that thing is a goner. In my experience, the core freezes so much faster in an aluminum screw. The core also “sticks” more in an aluminum screw.

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