TNF 50/50 Down?

Let me start by admitting I haven't even considered buy anything from The North Face in easily fifteen years.  I have nothing against them, but being that they sold out to the college and urban crowds decades ago, I just haven't been interested in any of their gear ... until now, I suppose.  For anyone who owns or uses recent TNF products, please take no offense.

Maybe interest is a little strong, but I'm definitely intrigued by their Advanced Mountain Kit (AMK), specifically their 50/50 Down Midlayers, which is also available in a less expensive Summit Series model, incorporating 800-fill down vs. the AMK's 1000-fill down.

A long time ago, I was taught that for a midlayer, down, in general, is a bad idea.  Most down insulation, including belay jackets, "wet out" not so much from exterior weather, but from interior body vapor and/or melting snow from your outermost layer.  The rule of thumb, from my experience, was synthetic insulation as a midlayer and, at your discretion, down for static warmth in a belay jacket where weight, warmth and packability matter most.

TNF's 50/50 Down has me intrigued, but perplexed.  It appears they've sewn/welded "pods" of down baffles to a highly breathable textile, allowing enough space between the pods/baffles to facilitate heat/vapor transport into and through the high-CFM material the pods are sewn to.  Again, my concern with wearing anything down as a midlayer, whether out for a long day or on an expedition, is wetting out the down, rendering the insulative properties of the midlayer useless.  Due to the highly permeable material, though, it appears, on paper, that with the spacing of the pods, coupled with the high-CFM textile, these pieces may've mitigated the entrapment of warm, moist heat which endangers the down clusters.

Granted, there's no free lunch; it's give and take, so I can't imagine this is anywhere near perfect, but does anyone not sponsored by TNF, with real world experience, have any thoughts on the 50/50 Down midlayer approach? Does the material breath well enough for sustained WI5 climbs without risk of soaking the down pods with body vapor?

I understand a lot of this is subjective as everyone produces heat, sweat, body vapor differently, but I'm just curious is TNF is onto something?  I tip my hat to them for trying something new, for sure.

On that note, don't get me wrong, I'm not even remotely considering paying their obnoxious AMK prices, which I know there's already a lengthy MP thread about.

TNF 50-50 system

Is this your idea of the "mid-layer" from NF, or something else?

And what type of objective are you looking at to utilize the NF mid-layer? The above NF jacket looks pretty beefy as a mid-layer so that is why I ask about your objective. On a short ski objective, I doubt it makes a big difference.

In part because it's a beefy looking mid-layer that will trap vapor no matter the design. With a backpack, it is likely that TNF jacket will still generate a "wet out" along your back due to the lack of airflow from being compressed, and your outer layer acting as a heat trap.

I have worn thin, well-baffled down as a mid-layer. I just unzip my pockets and the front zipper to allow air flow assuming I can afford the heat loss. At 10-below (or more with wind chill), hiking the bootpack up Jackson's Town Hill (Snow King mtn) during the winter, I push out plenty of steam. Quality thermal under-layers barely move the vapor off the skin as quickly as I generate it but I stay warm. Heading up the Grand Teton in below-zero temps, I actually like a lot of thin layers near the skin. I don't worry about air flow once past those layers. Still toasty all day, but only out for a day. Long winter trips into the Winds, every little bit of clothing technology can't hurt but like any new technology it's probably over-hyped.

Teton Climber wrote:

TNF 50-50 system

Is this your idea of the "mid-layer" from NF, or something else?

Not really.  Like I mentioned, I never considered down as a midlayer due to down's hydrophilic properties, coupled with non-breathable materials typically used in down garment construction.

One reason the 50/50 piece intrigues me is the use of a high-CFM fabric mated to distinct baffles of down, allowing, in theory, much more breathability than a tradition, static insulation piece.  It appears you actually have real world use with a 50/50 jacket, and, for you, it may be a bit too lofty and a bit less breathable than desired. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

If you generate that much heat isn't the solution to just move to a less-warm midlayer? I get that in the real world it doens't always work like this but I have been taught and try to work by the following principle: generating sweat (in winter conditions)=wear a colder midlayer. All discussion about breathable materials, down v. synthetic and MVTR is pointless if you're just generating way too much heat for your (or any) clothing system to keep up. 

As an aside: you could also have a look at brands that produce wool-based puffies. Wool is much more capable of breathing and thermo-regulating than either down or synthetic. 

This product is funny, it really seems like it absolutely must be worn under a shell with no exception. The whole idea of a down midlayer is a strange one, you're correct and tbh I don't really see much of an application, I'd really want to see it's pack down size as I personally still think fleece is king, I don't see how any of the new midlayers on the market offer anything a fleece and wind jacket doesn't already offer. 

Basically, I have no idea what the point of this jacket is, it's bizarre and seems like it's just made to sell more jackets than actually offer something new, a well designed down gilet would have all the benefits of this jacket with a smaller pack size and considerably lower cost. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Basically, I have no idea what the point of this jacket is, it's bizarre and seems like it's just made to sell more jackets than actually offer something new, a well designed down gilet would have all the benefits of this jacket with a smaller pack size and considerably lower cost. 

Maybe the birds were part of the mass resignation and there was a shortage of feathers.

I don't know that TNF saw it as a mid-layer as much as the OP did but I don't work for TNF or speak for the OP. It may work great as a mid-layer under a shell in some conditions. Put it in a pack when not needed. As for fleece as a mid-layer, works fine. So does wool or a thin puffy. Just depends on your objective, weather, and preferences.

Kind of related...

This is from TNF website explaining their layering system. The FutureFleece is considered the second layer, or Mid Layer.

Of course, I used to work there at the retail level and they had virtually no training for their employees on their gear.  The L1, L2, L3 etc... is how they designed their gear for layering.

Here is a review and its usage.

https://www.wildsnow.com/27518/north-face-l3-50-50-down-jacket-an-evolution-in-breathable-insulation/

Now I'm no longer exhausted from a long shift, this is actually a cool jacket design what I believe is happening is they are using the down tubes and stretchy fabric to essentially act as a pump, to remove hot air and moisture from the jacket when moving but not really lose it when static. I've been thinking about a localised version of this design for years. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Now I'm no longer exhausted from a long shift, this is actually a cool jacket design what I believe is happening is they are using the down tubes and stretchy fabric to essentially act as a pump, to remove hot air and moisture from the jacket when moving but not really lose it when static. I've been thinking about a localised version of this design for years. 

Imagine if they were able to completely waterproof / VBL the baffles from both the outside and inside, basically encapsulating the down within the baffles and preventing the down from ever wetting out.  This way, there'd be no risk to the down, but still allowing the area between the baffles to facilitate air movement during motion, or to pack away in your pack / stuff sack. I'm sure this would need a bit more engineering, but I feel like it could work.  Watered down, my end goal here would be to prevent body vapor from penetrating the baffles and saturating the down throughout the day and/or moisture from the exterior doing the same. 

AlpineIce wrote:

Imagine if they were able to completely waterproof / VBL the baffles from both the outside and inside, basically encapsulating the down within the baffles and preventing the down from ever wetting out.  This way, there'd be no risk to the down, but still allowing the area between the baffles to facilitate air movement during motion, or to pack away in your pack / stuff sack. I'm sure this would need a bit more engineering, but I feel like it could work.  Watered down, my end goal here would be to prevent body vapor from penetrating the baffles and saturating the down throughout the day and/or moisture from the exterior doing the same. 

I've heard this be suggested before, basically the issue is, once you seal the down in tubes that are waterproof all around there's also no way for air to escape so no way for the down to compress. Even if there was a way around this I don't think it's massively necessary either tbh, down isn't *that* fragile especially if you give the moist air somewhere to go. 

Plus, you'd end up with a piece of apparel that is only able to transport moisture from your body through 50 per cent of its surface because however way you'd do it the waterproof down baffles will be in the way. I'm sure this could be somewhat mitigated with good body-mapping but it feels like a solution searching for a problem.