Recent bolting at Wisconsin crags

It recently came to my attention, through word of mouth, that there has been an individual bolting at different areas across Wisconsin. I don’t know anything about this person and I’m just trying to put out feelers as to what has been done, what people think, and what should be done. With the amount of gray area in the legality of Wisconsin climbing areas I’m concerned unwarranted bolting could draw unwanted attention and possible closures.
Thanks for the coming information and discussion that will follow. 

I've seen a few routes posted I know are choss.

We've had a few rouge bolters come through over the years and some ok routes have gone up but I encourage the community to highly scrutinize any new bolting. Many of us scoured the cliffs long ago for lines worth doing.

I completely agree with your sentiment Nick. What I’ve heard is that this person has been bolting existing trad lines and that I definitely have a problem with.

I believe I may know the person in question here. As far as I know, they haven’t bolted any lines that were already established trad climbs. I know for sure there was one route that several people felt could have been done just as easily on gear. I think this persons sentiment with establishing more moderate sport climbs is to spread out the masses of new climbers frequenting these areas that were once local spots for people who live there. Odds are these people aren’t going away so I think the idea is to spread them out instead of letting them run a train on Glass Balls at Necedah.

This person is in touch with many other local developers and as far as I know has had positive feedback on several of the new lines. Their motivation is to give back to the community here, hence establishing easier lines. They’re trying to keep access to these areas open and promote good stewardship. And while bolting May or May not fall into that depending on your opinion. The idea is right I think. 

Believe me, im way more interested in pushing trad climbing around here, but unfortunately I think this is a bit of an adapt or die situation. 

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

I believe I may know the person in question here. As far as I know, they haven’t bolted any lines that were already established trad climbs. I know for sure there was one route that several people felt could have been done just as easily on gear. I think this persons sentiment with establishing more moderate sport climbs is to spread out the masses of new climbers frequenting these areas that were once local spots for people who live there. Odds are these people aren’t going away so I think the idea is to spread them out instead of letting them run a train on Glass Balls at Necedah.

This person is in touch with many other local developers and as far as I know has had positive feedback on several of the new lines. Their motivation is to give back to the community here, hence establishing easier lines. They’re trying to keep access to these areas open and promote good stewardship. And while bolting May or May not fall into that depending on your opinion. The idea is right I think.

Believe me, im way more interested in pushing trad climbing around here, but unfortunately I think this is a bit of an adapt or die situation. 

Have you thought of politics as a FT profession?

M M wrote:

Have you thought of politics as a FT profession?

Lol I work for the city I live in and I’ll often say that I’m gonna run for mayor next election. Shake things up a bit. Turn the abandoned grocery store into a climbing gym 

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

I believe I may know the person in question here. As far as I know, they haven’t bolted any lines that were already established trad climbs. I know for sure there was one route that several people felt could have been done just as easily on gear. I think this persons sentiment with establishing more moderate sport climbs is to spread out the masses of new climbers frequenting these areas that were once local spots for people who live there. Odds are these people aren’t going away so I think the idea is to spread them out instead of letting them run a train on Glass Balls at Necedah.

This person is in touch with many other local developers and as far as I know has had positive feedback on several of the new lines. Their motivation is to give back to the community here, hence establishing easier lines. They’re trying to keep access to these areas open and promote good stewardship. And while bolting May or May not fall into that depending on your opinion. The idea is right I think. 

Believe me, im way more interested in pushing trad climbing around here, but unfortunately I think this is a bit of an adapt or die situation. 

This is always the excuse, "spread out the crowds", and it doesn't work, bad lines don't get climbed. 

The outdoors is not a gym and no one has a right to easy sport climbs. While I am sure some quality lines have been overlooked it's important to educate one's self on what is worth bolting and what's not. We don't need chossy squeeze jobs, they only detract from other wise decent climbing. 

If you must climb a questionable line, just top rope it, that's what we did in order to minimize our impact. 

WI has a strong tradition of climbing "clean" and with integrity, lets keep it that way.

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

I believe I may know the person in question here. As far as I know, they haven’t bolted any lines that were already established trad climbs. I know for sure there was one route that several people felt could have been done just as easily on gear. I think this persons sentiment with establishing more moderate sport climbs is to spread out the masses of new climbers frequenting these areas that were once local spots for people who live there. Odds are these people aren’t going away so I think the idea is to spread them out instead of letting them run a train on Glass Balls at Necedah.

This person is in touch with many other local developers and as far as I know has had positive feedback on several of the new lines. Their motivation is to give back to the community here, hence establishing easier lines. They’re trying to keep access to these areas open and promote good stewardship. And while bolting May or May not fall into that depending on your opinion. The idea is right I think. 

Believe me, im way more interested in pushing trad climbing around here, but unfortunately I think this is a bit of an adapt or die situation. 

Rise up to the climb. Climbing shouldn’t be reduced because people aren’t willing to put in the time/work to learn how to place gear. If you can’t make a basket, you don’t lower the hoop. If you can’t do it, figure it out, otherwise do something else. 

John Tex wrote:

Sounds like they are doing everything the right way. And it sounds like he has a perfect right to bolt sport climbs which gives others the right to climb easy sport climbs. Nothing to see here. May he bolt in piece. Not like it's all that great out there anyway. 

Although any person may have the right to bolt in this great State of ours they might not have the cachet. 

I'm perfectly okay with someone bolting new lines so long as they have the permission of the land manager. Does he have the permission of the land manager? I've talked to a few people and it always seems murky here. If he doesn't, I don't care what noble intentions he has, he's more of a liability to climbing in Wisconsin than a help. 

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

As far as I know, they haven’t bolted any lines that were already established trad climbs.

[emphasis added] I believe this is correct.

Tradiban is also correct when he asserts that unaesthetic lines won't get climbed.  Popularity is a fickle beast, and I can show you routes that were popular 40 years ago that have moss several inches deep on them now.  Tastes change.

In my ever-so-humble opinion, Wisconsin needs a good mix of both trad and sport climbing options, because we have plenty of climbers of both stripes.  While many of us enjoy both types of climbing, each style has it's true believers  and promoters.  What we don't need is the true believers trying to commandeer resources that are already enjoyed in a different style.

At this point in time, we could surely use more sport climbs around here.  But a tricky part of this is that, in areas where both trad and sport are already established, adding a new line that becomes popular can really change the experience offered by already existing lines around it.

I'm skeptical that "spreading the impact" by adding a nearby fun sport 5.8 will actually work. I think the lines on "Glass Balls" and "Air" will remain as they are for the foreseeable future. If anything, adding similar routes at Necedah will just make the whole area popular with more people, and the lines will be even longer.  Anyone want to collect some data on this?  This isn't just about sport climbing, either.  As the DL guidebooks have documented more and more areas over the years (to spread the impact), the East Rampart has nevertheless seen steady traffic - there is always a line on "Brinton's".  Every place I've looked over the last 45 years, adding sport climbing adds impact, it certainly never reduces it.  New trad areas are not exempt from this either, although most trad areas have a little more breathing room between routes to begin with.

Go explore for new routes - it's fun.  But if you are telling yourself that finding a new route is improving the conservation status of some other route, I think you are just kidding yourself.

Adam Ronchetti wrote:

I'm perfectly okay with someone bolting new lines so long as they have the permission of the land manager. Does he have the permission of the land manager? I've talked to a few people and it always seems murky here. If he doesn't, I don't care what noble intentions he has, he's more of a liability to climbing in Wisconsin than a help. 

This is exactly my stance and why I created the post. 

waxisgood wrote:

This is exactly my stance and why I created the post. 

I'll clarify that I don't think trad lines should be bolted. But, while doing so might be in bad taste, it's not really enough to force someone to stop bolting since it's not really detrimental to climbing overall. 

That being said I have no issues with using peer pressure to make sed person stop bolting trad lines. But these are personal opinions :)

Adam Ronchetti wrote:

I'll clarify that I don't think trad lines should be bolted. But, while doing so might be in bad taste, it's not really enough to force someone to stop bolting since it's not really detrimental to climbing overall. 

That being said I have no issues with using peer pressure to make sed person stop bolting trad lines. But these are personal opinions :)

Yes, bolting anything that can be lead on gear is a big no no. We maintained this ethic in Wisconsin up to the present why would we bend it now?

Personally I agree. But if the routes are being bolted with the land managers permission there isn't much that can be done.

That being said are there safety concerns. Are the proper materials being used? Are they being placed in quality rock? I don't bolt so I honestly don't know but my impression has been that the bolts themselves are fine.

That being said I also remember in Valley Uprising when Royal Robbins started chopping bolts from Warren Harding's route. The argument can be made that any bolt that's placed can be removed. Not supporting such action but I think, at the end of the day, this is one of those times where the climbing community of Wisconsin has to act as it's own police. 

Adam Ronchetti wrote:

Personally I agree. But if the routes are being bolted with the land managers permission there isn't much that can be done.

That being said are there safety concerns. Are the proper materials being used? Are they being placed in quality rock? I don't bolt so I honestly don't know but my impression has been that the bolts themselves are fine.

That being said I also remember in Valley Uprising when Royal Robbins started chopping bolts from Warren Harding's route. The argument can be made that any bolt that's placed can be removed. Not supporting such action but I think, at the end of the day, this is one of those times where the climbing community of Wisconsin has to act as it's own police. 

No bolts IN WI (except maybe Willow?) are placed with land managers permission because they aren't giving it. That's the problem with adding more bolts, it attracts attention to an illicit activity.

You are right about some of the land access being questionable at best, but that is the reason there’s work being done to preserve climbing access to these places. And really, in a cliff that already has a large number of bolted lines I seriously doubt that will attract the attention of land managers of all things happening there.

I am genuinely curious, have any of you actually climbed any of these new sport routes? If so, and you actually have a firsthand opinion that they’re shit then that’s fine.

If the community of Wi climbers has different ideas about how to preserve and keep these areas nice and relatively safe with a MASSIVE influx of people coming fresh out of the gym and zero mentorship. I think that would be good to share, but if you’re just grumpy about things being added then that’s a bit unreasonable 

Garrett Hopkins wrote:

You are right about some of the land access being questionable at best, but that is the reason there’s work being done to preserve climbing access to these places. And really, in a cliff that already has a large number of bolted lines I seriously doubt that will attract the attention of land managers of all things happening there.

The land managers are already upset about the bolts that are there. By adding more bolts you are poking the bear. In some of these places climbing is technically not allowed anyway. We have effectively flown under the radar for a long time, don't screw it up now.

I am genuinely curious, have any of you actually climbed any of these new sport routes? If so, and you actually have a firsthand opinion that they’re shit then that’s fine.

Yes, I am well known to have thrown a rope down just about everything. If you must climb something just TR it, a bolted lead is almost always not necessary.

If the community of Wi climbers has different ideas about how to preserve and keep these areas nice and relatively safe with a MASSIVE influx of people coming fresh out of the gym and zero mentorship. I think that would be good to share, but if you’re just grumpy about things being added then that’s a bit unreasonable 

They were already nice and safe, I would preserve access by treating these areas as sacred and discouraging the gymbies from going until they are ready to climb the established routes.

EDIT: If you want to do a service for the community fix old bolts and tread lightly.

Tradi is right that only the bolts at Willow were installed with the land manager's knowledge/permission (edit: and the Wyalusing quarry).  SO FAR Gov Dodge is the only place this has been a problem.

I think we are getting to the point where we can work with the DNR and have sport routes - this has certainly been a goal in talking with them.  We have no relationship with DOT.

I also agree with Garrett that the recent new routes are only attracting attention from climbers - they are neither a positive or a negative in our non-existent relationship at Necedah.  We need to work together to provide climbing opportunities for a variety of climbers, within the limits of Wisconsin geology and respecting the other people who we share these areas with, in a manner that doesn't trash these places.

(Safety remains an individual responsibility.  It's not up to a route "developer" to make a route safe for you, nor is it the responsibility of a land manager to make climbing safe for you. You choose what you climb.)

Interesting thread. Are there really lines of punters waiting to do Glass Balls since it got retro bolted ?

Is Necedah getting over crowded and trampled because of the bolted moderates ?

Will access be threatened?

Be careful what you wish for.

Steve Sangdahl wrote:

Interesting thread. Are there really lines of punters waiting to do Glass Balls since it got retro bolted ?

Is Necedah getting over crowded and trampled because of the bolted moderates ?

Will access be threatened?

Be careful what you wish for.

  

1.  It has 534 tics on MP right now, and most people don’t tic routes…so yeah  

2. A. Not sure…

    B. No, just the popularity of the sport is increasing and people from ORD now drive north just as much as they do south  

3  I don’t believe it is/ will be, but I am out of the WI loop now  

4.  You can say that for most things in life once you are no longer a beginner in the sport/place and you can see incremental change happening, also helps if one is middle age I believe  (I am becoming jaded as well with certain things..)  

5  wut, no Peace and Funkness?!?!?