Why are climbing guides so expensive?

Hi, 

I have been looking around - granted mostly in CO - and I am curious as to why guided climbing trips are so expensive. Not judging here, just trying to understand. Looking at the Colorado Mountain School for example, looks like a private guide for a day cost around $400. Or like this https://coloradomountainschool.com/product/learn-to-lead-trad/ cost over $500 per person for up to 6 people for 2 days. Includes guide and gear but nothing else. I am curious at to why 2 days (not even overnight) of guiding 6 people cost 3k. Is there a crazy amount of hidden cost (eg insurance)? is the guide training so expensive that they need to reimburse it over multiple years?

This is what the training and certification process looks like to reach the highest level of certification. Each course/exam costs around $2,000-3,000

but do you need all of them to teach how to sport climb on a single pitch?

Why something is a given price doesn't really have a simple answer when prices are set at a market rate.

This question doesn't really make sense

is the guide training so expensive that they need to reimburse it over multiple years

Like anyone in a market, guides maximize their profit; if it were more profitable to set cheaper prices and take more clients, that would be the preferred option. But the rates you see are likely close to the profit-maximizing price for the market.

Even asking about the costs of a guide service doesn't really make a ton of sense – what you're really asking is whether the cost of running a guide service is high enough that the current prices make opening a new service (very roughly) zero-profit/normal-profit. Like any market with prices set via competition, the answer is probably yes.

Your life and learning is worth it. For an 8-hour day, that 400 is $50/hour. Try to get a plumber or auto mechanic that cheap.

Some guide services offer half days, which would be less expensive.

JonasMR wrote:

If it's an 8 hour day, isn't that about $50/hr. Like a carpenter or roofer, less than a plumber or electrician, half what a mechanic might charge per hour. I mean, regional variability, etc and so forth; but people's time costs money. 

Or was the question more about how health insurance, taxes, and so on mean that charged rates are greater than take home pay in all fields?

Quite a bit more if you guide 4 to 6 people at once (which seems to be a common ratio for single pitch stuff). Given that it does not include food / transportation etc, the marginal cost is fairly low. Do they have any hidden cost that I am not aware of?

Thomas Hlr wrote:

Quite a bit more if you guide 4 to 6 people at once (which seems to be a common ratio for single pitch stuff). Given that it does not include food / transportation etc, the marginal cost is fairly low. Do they have any hidden cost that I am not aware of?

With more people (higher client to guide ratio), they make more money. Because it's more work and more responsibility. Makes sense to me.

insurance, equipment, etc

Insurance

Cost of living

Like most any service, you get what you pay for.

I’ve seen posts over the years of folks advertising their “guiding service” on MP. Just don’t ask what kind of insurance policy they’ve got. Killer rates though.

I also know a guy in the trailer park that does tattoos real cheap.

The time and money that goes into the certification. The permits for the area and the insurance. Any overhead for advertising and equipment. All of that combined with the fact that you are paying someone to have your life in their hands and provide you with an amazing experience doing something that you can't "just go out and do" on your own. If the guide is good at what they do, it will be worth every penny. If your ever in Jtree, I suggest Hobo Greg. Great guide and worth every penny.

Thomas Hlr wrote:

Hi, 

I have been looking around - granted mostly in CO - and I am curious as to why guided climbing trips are so expensive. Not judging here, just trying to understand. Looking at the Colorado Mountain School for example, looks like a private guide for a day cost around $400. Or like this https://coloradomountainschool.com/product/learn-to-lead-trad/ cost over $500 per person for up to 6 people for 2 days. Includes guide and gear but nothing else. I am curious at to why 2 days (not even overnight) of guiding 6 people cost 3k. Is there a crazy amount of hidden cost (eg insurance)? is the guide training so expensive that they need to reimburse it over multiple years?

Do you have an amount in mind for how much a full time rock climbing guide ought to make annually?

Consider that guide services take as much as half of the day rate for permits, insurance, equipment, administrative costs, and their own cut. And that many services provide no benefits, even to full time guides. So your guide may get $200/day for 200 days/year = $40k before taxes and health care. Next, what’s the cost of living on the Front Range?

Short answer: if you’re fortunate enough to be out with a guide, learn as much as you can and tip generously.

Higher educational costs is a red herring. Plenty of university and trade school grads get paid less with greater educational debt on their plate. 

Demand at that price is there (and at MUCH MUCH higher prices). No reason to cater to the riffraff. Always been a healthy demand from the upper classes for guides. And better tips. Follow the money.

Better question:  How much does a guide make each year?

You'll find they are not charging enough.

Guides gotta eat too, look at the cost of living in a lot of these mountain destinations and think: would you want to be responsible for 6 gumbies lives for $50/hr?

Dylan McIntosh wrote:

Guides gotta eat too, look at the cost of living in a lot of these mountain destinations and think: would you want to be responsible for 6 gumbies lives for $50/hr?

Its hard work.  Trust me, I know.

A lot of answers here kind of answering the question.

Firstly, (and arguably most importantly) what do you think a fair hourly rate is for a day of rock guiding? As the person doing the guiding, I'd like to be making somewhere between 40 and 100/hour depending on the difficulty of the work day.  But I'm also pretty experienced and highly trained in this particular discipline and as a result, command a higher wage than an SPI who's only been guiding for 1-2 summers.  (and I'd like to think I'll deliver a superior product)  That means the cost of labor for an 8 hour day not including workers comp (which is way more for a guide service than a standard white collar company) and taxes is somewhere between 320 and 800 per day.  (though many guide services pay less than that for a day of rock guiding-it's often more in the 220/day range)  I'd emphasize the point made above comparing my wage to that of someone working in the trades.  Guides and carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc have very parallel careers in a lot of ways.

Secondly, as has been said, liability insurance isn't cheap.  It's actually quite expensive.

Thirdly, ditto permits.

Lastly, companies like CMS have brick and mortar locations that they rent for $$$.  Some part of the cost of that program goes towards that.  And paying for full time office staff who answer the phones to both help you through the booking process and make sure you sign up for a trip that fits your skill set and goals.

One closing thought is that that a lot of trips might max out at a 6:1 ratio, but that doesn't mean they''ll actually run at that ratio.  The guide service has to assume it's going to be somewhere in the middle or they could lose their shirt if the trip doesn't fully book.  Usually if you book a private trip that maxes out the ratio, the cost comes down a bit as you're guaranteeing the high ratio.

So let me get this straight. You're whining about how much a climbing guide charges? This might just be the stupidest and most offensive post/question I've seen on this forum. Guides are not amateur's doing it for the fun of it. They are trained professionals. Sure, they're led to the profession out of a love for climbing, but the last thing any guide or guiding service needs is a cheapskate who probably won't tip their underpaid guide a dime.

Kristian Solem wrote:

So let me get this straight. You're whining about how much a climbing guide charges? This might just be the stupidest and most offensive post/question I've seen on this forum. 

OP: "Not judging here, just trying to understand."

Teton Climber wrote:

OP: "Not judging here, just trying to understand."

Sorry if I went off the hook. Many of my best friends are guides. I know what they are up against. 

It costs what people will pay for it, same as anything.